>"And? You would have preferred that your ancestors met the same fate as the Cathars for instance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Annihilation" < I wouldn't prefer it, but what i would prefer means nothing, what matters is being Christian first and everything else second, the Bible is the first and last word on all matters that it discusses, the only thing that overwrites what the Bible says on something, is what the Bible says on that same topic, but in a more authoritative place. >"Because without Charles Martel... You wouldn't be Christian, Western Christianity wouldn't even be a thing to put it simply: Thanks God for the shepherd dog..." Or maybe the Muslims would be moved by out faith and willingness to sacrifice everything, including ourselves, for the lord. You know, like Paul and so many others who went from persecutors of Christians to champions of Christianity. >"Letting your kind getting murdered and enslaved by hordes of barbarians for virtue signal points in order to get your ticket to heaven is immoral.... Just as immoral as letting your family getting slaughtered by retarded murderers for the exact same reason" Only God determines what is right or wrong, things are only good or evil because God determines them to be so, and again, Jesus explicitly speaks on this point: "you must hate your family, and yourself, in order to become my disciple". Jesus gives explicit examples of self-sacrifice, he described them to us, then he himself shows us the way. He does everything he can to call on us to be martyrs for him. just as he was for us, I don't think there was anything else he could say that would be more explicit. Yes, he does expect us to allow ourselves and our families to be slaughtered, and it is moral, because he commands it, our lives mean nothing, this world means nothing, all that matters is our obedience to God in Jesus Christ. This is how the devil gets you, he gets you by telling you "you know better than God", he tells you that you are just like God, same as in the Garden of Eden, same as in the Tower of Babylon, his call to hubris is always in the form of "you are better than your creator", and when you put earthly, material, and practical concerns over trust in the word of God, rather than just making god's command the first and final consideration of moral knowledge, you are saying "I know better than the creator". >"It's "murder", not "kill", for a reason" Yes, if God commands it, endorses it, or makes an exception for it, and it is compatible with his word, then killing is not murder. >"If you can't make the difference between murder and self defense you're an idiot, And yes, it was self defense, muslims were invading us to subjugate us, by force of arms, You don't get that you get nothing" The problem here is that I recognize that you are talking about self-defense, and I am saying that there is no place where Jesus gives an ok to killing in self-defense, in fact, he's said a lot of things that pretty much amount to "yes, let them kill you if the only other choice is to fight them", then he goes and clears up all ambiguity by asking us to follow his example and "be like Christ", by going ut and doing exactly what he told us about, not fighting when his enemies killed him. Going to Heaven is the most important thing, to unite with God, of course you are going to hide people away from those trying to kill them, and you will run from those trying to kill you as well, and you will plead with those who persecute you, and ask God to forgive them and show them the light, and you will preach the gospel to them. But if you believe that Christ said that it is better to enter heaven lacking a hand, than it is to strike another with it, you better abide by that word, all the way to the very final implication of it, that is what it means to be a martyr. This is the way the discussion always goes, someone comes in with what the Holy Bible says on a subject, and the others come at it from a secular perspective, talking about their own personal opinions, about practical concerns and consequential appeals, and other extra-Biblical sources of opposition to God's word, rather than citing some biblical source that is more authoritative, followed by assurances that they themselves are still Godly, despite not making the clear statements of the Good Book the first and last word on the subject, even if that word is something they personally object to on some grounds. "I believe in God and his word, the Holy Bible, but only when it is not inconvenient for me to do so" The Holy Bible, inspired word of God, claims Jesus said something, I believe in God and Trust in Christ and in the sacred inspired written word, that is all that is needed to settle it for someone who is a Christian first and foremost.