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141

It's really not engineering.

It's really not engineering.

(post is archived)

[–] • 7 pts

The engineers I work with all feel that an 'engineer' is one as defined by the IEEE. I am of two schools on it; I agree and I disagree. I disagree only to the extent that disciplines evolve and this is promulgated as systems and dependencies become more and more virtualized. The SW system must undergo a level of rigor to be securely designed and implemented yet modular enough to integrate - this is engineering as I see it.

[–] [deleted] • 11 pts

Software systems are orders of magnitude more complex than the most complex physical or electrical systems. Anyone who doesn't think it's engineering has never written programs for physical systems before. This is interesting because complexity is shifting into software that controls physical systems and out of the physical systems themselves.

[–] • 4 pts

Do you want government regulation of the software profession though?

[–] • 4 pts

yes, what you have to ask is if it is possible to "certify" a SW system, because that is the key role of the whole "engineer" mess.

basically, a bridge build according to regulation is deemed safe

can you do that on systems engineering ? no, not unless you basically "freeze" the tech landscape and certify it

The key point I am trying to say: You need to look beyond the simple statement, to the consequences

[–] • 0 pt
[+] [deleted] • 0 pt
[–] • 5 pts

What this long, rambling article somehow fails to clarify is that in Canada the term “engineer” is as legally meaningful as the term “medical doctor”. There are Canadian universities that have engineering programs for both software and computer engineers. They are educated the same way other types are engineers are. They can later become certified professional engineers through roughly the same means. Only those people can legally call themselves software engineers and computer engineers.

The confusion here is that countries like the US make no legal distinction between who can and cannot call themselves an engineer. The term is widely misused and holds little to no meaning at this point, but it still sounds impressive so companies use it in job titles. Canadian companies are free to advertise positions for software and computer engineers, but anyone officially working under those titles must be an accredited engineer.

The letter says APEGA’s “aggressive position” would result in “onerous, restrictive and unnecessary certification requirements” for developers, and harm companies’ ability to compete for talent. “If we cannot effectively compete for the best employees while headquartered in Alberta, we must seriously consider whether this is a place where our companies can succeed,” states the letter signed by CEOs of Benevity Inc., Symend Inc., Neo Financial Technologies Inc. and others.

This is silly and blown out of proportion. The company I work for was recently hiring a software developer. We accepted remote candidates from the US. We did not have unusual trouble finding candidates because we didn’t use “engineer” in the title. The word “developer” (formerly “programmer”) works fine.

One of the US candidates asked us if this was an engineering position. He was asking that because in the US job titles with “engineer” in their name imply higher level work that you get paid more for. We explained the whole thing about the term “engineer” in Canada and he understood. No problem.

[+] [deleted] • 3 pts
[–] • 1 pt

A lawyer is just someone who laws, but if you do it without a license they arrest you. If you want that to be the case for computer programming, then we can get obsessed over whatever an engineer is.

[+] [deleted] • 1 pt
[–] • 4 pts

Is a "sanitation engineer" an engineer? Come to think about it, is an engineer an engineer? The real engineer is the man who drives the big steam engine down the rails.

[+] [deleted] • 1 pt
[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

Right this is all a holdover from the boiler makers guilds.

[–] • 2 pts (edited )

Engineers are the most arrogant types I've seen in my life, they have a very high opinion of themselves, they really don't think of themselves as shit... And they can't help but remind everybody, everyday, that they are smart, they even have a paper saying so, imagine that... And it's a disaster when it comes to leadership, that's almost a constant

Out of their comfort zone they're ridiculous

[–] • 1 pt (edited )

And they can't help but remind everybody, everyday, that they are smart

They are neither smart nor capable; they’re just willing to argue about fucking anything because they think it makes them sound smart and capable.

If you want a baboon who struggles to fail, hire an engineer. Otherwise, an engineer is a prehensile, arrogant joke.

[–] • 0 pt

I heard a co-worker ended up punching him in the face, a couple of months after I left. It was the type of guy telling everybody what to do, but incapable himself to do the job, and not only that, he was also teaching people how to make their job the wrong way after blaming them for some other shit, which as a result rendered everybody completely schizophrenic

Worse, he had a talent for liking those shitting on his back for even made up reasons sometimes, and being at odds with those who were actually helping him by just not being assholes

So yeah, so called "situational awareness" wasn't his thing, to say the least

[–] • 1 pt

It was the type of guy telling everybody what to do, but incapable himself to do the job

This is the literal reason that “software engineers” are natural failasses.

[–] • 1 pt

Chiropractors call themselves Dr. but that doesn't make them a medical doctor. It's the same deal with software engineers.

[–] • 0 pt

A PhD makes you a doctor but not a doctor.

[–] • 0 pt

No, you're a doctor but specifically a doctor of philosophy. As opposed to a medical doctor.

[–] • 1 pt (edited )

Texas is one of the more strict states for that definition.

One can only be called an engineer with a PE (professional engineering license). So, a EE or a ME cannot put "Engineer" on their business cards or title unless they have a PE.

This is fine, but that means 98% of the engineers in the state are not "Engineers". (Most people get around this rule by putting "XYZ engineering" on their business cards ... they can say the title of the department they are in such as "sales engineering", but they can't say "sales engineer" as that would be against the law...)

The only big down side is that the state legislature takes their cues from the Civil Engineers as they are all PEs (because their jobs require it), and they are -mostlyfucking idiots.

[–] • 1 pt

It isn't worthy of professional licensure that is for sure. Probably a good thing

[–] • 1 pt

If the program written isn't telling hardware how to function or how to interact with other hardware, then you aren't an engineer.

[–] • 0 pt

hardware such as displays? hard drives? usb fans? smart homes? people? wheres the line?

[–] • 0 pt

Anything that has a PCB.

[–] • 0 pt

ok, by that definition virtually all software is engineering as it tells at least one component on a PCB how to function (display, I/O, memory, etc)

[–] • 1 pt

This isn't even about what it is, it's about what they can tax. Therefore, not an engineer. Fuck the taxman.

[–] • 1 pt

That's a misleading title.

They're trying to stop people from calling themselves "engineers" unless they actually have an engineering degree and certification.

You can't go around calling yourself an engineer just because you have a model train set, or because you set up your grandma's Facebook profile. You have to either drive a real train or have an engineering degree.

[–] • 0 pt

so those of us who never went to marxist camp with the other rich kids, yet do this shit every day for a living arent the same as those who went to marxist camp and do the exact same job?

[–] • 1 pt

That is correct.

A self entitled brat can not give themselves their own title. They can not call themselves whatever they want. I don't care how many people told you that you can be whatever you want. You can't.

Putting engineer on your resume doesn't make you an engineer. Just like putting Miss on your resume doesn't make you a woman. It's about time that people stopped putting up with idiots calling themselves whatever they want.

"Engineer" does not mean experience. It means they passed the tests from a certified institution. If you want to be an engineer, then take the tests and prove you know enough to be certified. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and stop claiming you're something you aren't.

with the other rich kids

You don't need to be rich to work and go to school at the same time, you lazy sack of shit. Or go and challenge the tests if you already know the material. And stop whining that the world isn't handing everything to you on a silver platter, you self entitled little brat.

[–] • 0 pt

OK so my RHCE, RHCSA, CompTIA S+/N+, and MCSE...

Make me less of an engineer than a stupid kid who goes to school with the marxist group?

That's cool. I let the employers who court me do the talking about that. My average colleague has a masters.

And no you don't have to be rich to go to school and work at the same time. Try it in fucking high school.

fuck off to the sheep you jew faggot.

[–] • 0 pt

You have to think like an engineer, problem solve like an engineer, create workarounds like an engineer, plan like an engineer, refine like an engineer, etc etc etc.

Software devs are definitely engineers

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