>Anyone defending themselves is attacking them. yeh true. parasite/host behaviour i would say. defending yourself is cutting off their supply. see i dont disagree with any of any of what you've said there, but i wouldnt call their understanding of how to hurt your feelings "empathy" either though. theyre narcissists, and really its just a case of the narc being so hyper aware of things like micro expressions and the like, that they pick up along the way, *exactly* how to hurt you. they tend to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, because as we know, they dont really have the capacity for creativity. but once they see that something stings, they most defiinitely derive a sick pleasure from inflicting that suffering as often as they can. they want to make us feel what they feel, they want to make you loathe yourself as much as they do. so youre right its definitely innate - but i think its clear at that same level they derive pleasure from humiliating the host organism. its both