WelcomeUser Guide
ToSPrivacyCanary
DonateBugsLicense

©2025 Poal.co

(post is archived)

[–] 0 pt (edited )

had the masses simply rejected the offers

Interesting.

You're being prescriptive, so you're making a moral claim.

On what grounds do you make the claim?

As a doubter in all things but science, which does not - in fact, cannot in principle - acknowledge the reality of value, where are you staking authority for the claim that people should have resisted the offers of the Jews? Why should they have? If the proposition that they should have rejected the offers was true by point of fact, what way of knowing this would have been available to Europeans a priori?

These arguments like yours always cannibalize themselves. For it to go through you'd require a moral theory rooting good action in something more than self-interest, which it is profoundly difficult to establish on a folk empiricism (or some rule-based imperative without teeth).

That 'idol' you are talking about, i.e. the Catholic Church, was a stronghold of western morality that united people beneath the protectionism of one set of shared values and doctrine emanating from a single source of universal authority. If you can come up with a better way to unify a group of people against a common enemy, I'd love to hear it. After all, the human species has yet to...so you'd have a trillion dollar answer in your head.

[–] 0 pt (edited )

where are you staking authority for the claim that people should have resisted the offers of the Jews? Why should they have?

At the individual level. The boundary of the individual. You make a good point but also demonstrate lack of understanding of the threat of authority. My proclamation was rather neutral, not unlike proclaiming that one should defend ones life if in danger. One should not give ones' own authority to another (or a thing, idea, concept, system, group). They should have rejected the offers of the Jews as a mater of principal in reserving 100% authority over self (and therefore protection).

single source of universal authority

As defined by the Catholic Church? And what about when some other Church desides they have the right to unite the masses under a 'single source of universal authority' for which they define? War. Why don't the masses simply reject 'massing' and instead understand that the 'single' source of universal authority is the sum of ALL sources of authority in the form of individuals: you are the source of 100% of the authority in your life and as such relinquishing it to any other 'single source' other than that of your own is therefore idolotry (dangerous cult like behavior that aggreggates authority into the rubbing hands of a few).

If you can come up with a better way to unify a group of people against a common enemy, I'd love to hear it.

The common enemy is each other - not the Jew, not the commie NKVD officer (though they are more dangerous than others cause of the more extreme levels of brainwashing/idolotry/submission to higher 'authority') - the extent of the enemy's power is only in the authority we give them and how much we allow ourselves to be intimidated by them.

Glad you ask - I don't think I have the trillion dollar answer, but it is fun to try; if I had to guess it would be this (rejection of all beliefs and external authorities) and its implications...

the main implication is return to barter. People who refuse to believe in third party idolotry thus reject the notion of money; be it a sea shell or dollar or Bitcoin. Such a transaction involving third party represents the relinquishment of authority to said idol and those who (((control))) it. We would therefore engage in commerce based on 1:1 trade; where both parties engage on the premise of exchanging real tangible goods or combinations of goods for mutual benefit and thus no authority given away, nor siphoned to third party through use of currency. This is the 'trillion' dollar answer if I had to come up with one. Since it is the most common worldwide form of idolotry; one in which you likely engaged in today when you bought a cup of coffee or carton of milk - and as such is the primary enabler of the 'enemy' (ourselves; our selfish tendancy to give away authority) which can motivate us to unify. Our initial unification can be based on simply choosing not to use currency; to reject it in all forms and come together instead based on our needs and what we can bring to the table to provide for the needs of others.

[–] 0 pt

oh, and also: taxation rejection. If your enemy taxes you that is obvious first step to 'unify a group' against it.
but this is too logical to the point of being flagged by the Soviet 'authorities' so that is all I will say about hat.

[–] 1 pt

In a world of collectives (humans naturally form collectives), individuals lose. Humans create states, this is just reality. You're like the shitlib saying the tool is bad when it comes to the gun but you think another tool (the state) is bad. You have a complete misunderstanding of how power works and human nature. You realize "real communism" is essentially everyone living without money and magically working together correct?

[–] 0 pt (edited )

At the individual level. The boundary of the individual. You make a good point but also demonstrate lack of understanding of the threat of authority.

I do understand. I understand that your entire position represents a simple contradiction.

One should not give ones' own authority to another (or a thing, idea, concept, system, group)

But this is precisely what you are doing. Your own prescription of rugged libertarianism is a commitment to an idea, and to an authority, namely, to yourself. I wonder why you think that millions of people obeying their own scattered authority stand any chance against an ethnically cohesive enemy which is high in social trust and united by a common belief? History has proven you wrong again, and again. In recent times, you need only look at the swift ascendency of Islam to see what unification under a common authority accomplishes.

Your American culture has been largely individualized for a century, and it has been commensurate with complete cultural collapse and granulation.

The common enemy is each other - not the Jew, not the commie NKVD officer (though they are more dangerous than others cause of the more extreme levels of brainwashing/idolatry/submission to higher 'authority') - the extent of the enemy's power is only in the authority we give them and how much we allow ourselves to be intimidated by them.

Your individual authority is weaker than their group authority. This is very straightforward. You're suggesting that a nation in which every individual claims no adherence to a common belief system, but who instead supplant God with their own Self, and who adhere to no authority but their own, are somehow supposed to collectively deflect an attack by a unified enemy? You're living in a dream.

You've even specified that we are each other's enemies. There is just clear lack of sociological and historical insight here.

the main implication is return to barter. People who refuse to believe in third party idolatry thus reject the notion of money; be it a sea shell or dollar or Bitcoin. Such a transaction involving third party represents the relinquishment of authority to said idol and those who (((control))) it. We would therefore engage in commerce based on 1:1 trade; where both parties engage on the premise of exchanging real tangible goods or combinations of goods for mutual benefit and thus no authority given away, nor siphoned to third party through use of currency.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is. Money is simply a level of abstraction away from energy. Let's imagine the sorts of goods we'd be inclined to trade in what we take to be your bartering society. We're assuming that a society absent any idols would also lack most specialized commercial interests, and so people would be living from the land, i.e. a subsistence lifestyle - after all, living for any higher ideal would imply living for an idol. Material accumulation beyond that which is necessary for survival would be idolatry.

We'd expect, then, that people would barter in basic life essentials: crops, livestock, farming tools, building materials, and hunting tools - exactly what we'd imagine barter and trade societies probably did exchange.

What unites all of these things? They are all actual stores of energy, or they represent techne for acquiring energy. Energy is the basic demand the environment places on us.

What limitations are experienced by such a lifestyle, which are not in a world with currency? Money becomes something that stores energy - to put it properly, money represents a stored quantity of other people's energy. Why is this important? Because in a subsistence society without money, everyone is fundamentally responsible for all of their life requirements. Everyone must be a jack-of-all-trades. In a world with money, people are able to specialize. Farmer John can trust Hunter Joe to get meat, while John takes care of the crops. Paul can spend his time designing a better spear tip or a better bow and arrow, while Jeff builds fences.

They are all able to do this because they can trust that the others, by virtue of their specialization, are able to do their special tasks better than any other member of the community. Therefore, each person sells his value to the others for money, and can subsequently exchange that money to mobilize the energy of the other persons.

It may not be entirely clear why money is necessary, until you understand the abstract and crucial concept of time-value. You might object to what I've said and tell me, "No money is necessary! They could all specialize in their own task and simply trade their products!" (Let's just ignore that in a system of currency, $1 is always $1, whereas the value of a bushel of corn can shift greatly during a year's time).

Time is intricately related to energy. The natural world demonstrates that most animal life spend the vast majority of their time foraging or hunting for food, or securing shelter. Take the situation with Paul, who thinks he can design a better bow and arrow that will benefit everyone in his society - perhaps even making them better able to defend themselves from human enemies. That bow and arrow doesn't yet exist. Therefore, Paul has a gamble. He can waste precious time designing the bow and arrow. Or he can give himself over to growing crops. Growing crops is going to trap him into the cycle of nature, and take up his time. To make money growing crops essentially determines his use of time.

If, however, Paul has amassed some money, he can afford to devote himself to the gamble of possibly creating something very valuable. Once he has made the new bow and arrow, he can sell that for money, and continue devoting himself to this apparent skill of invention. Money opens up the ability for the highly skilled and highly intelligent in society to apply themselves to tasks that are more sophisticated than the basic set of life-necessities that everyone must do by default in a bartering society. The money Paul has stored is always good, and not perishable (prone to devalue) like crops or meat.

This speaks to the other benefit of money: a person can exchange money for any commodity they choose. Whether a given good is valuable to Jeff or to John depends upon their own individual situation. Corn can be valuable today, but not tomorrow, whereas money stores its value indefinitely, becoming the universal storehouse of energy and accounting. This simply isn't possible in a society where each individual has a different good to offer - exchange becomes tricky...how do we settle the scuffle when I give 4 pheasants to Betty for 3 gallons of milk, but only 2 pheasants to you for your 3 bushels of corn? How easy will it be to negotiate the exchange rates as the seasons change, or when there are natural shortages?

Since it is the most common worldwide form of idolatry; one in which you likely engaged in today when you bought a cup of coffee or carton of milk - and as such is the primary enabler of the 'enemy' (ourselves; our selfish tendency to give away authority) which can motivate us to unify.

Energy is the idol, and really, power. Money is simply the guarantee to be able to utilize other people's energy.

If you did not idolize money, you'd idolize whatever the most salient need was at the time. At harvest time, you'd idolize crops. In winter, you'd idolize deer meat and hides. Food has been a substantial means of manipulating entire societies in the past. Look at Communist China or Bolshevik Russia.

what we can bring to the table to provide for the needs of others

And just what moral system is going to act as the social cement for this Brady Bunch? What is going to cause people to trust one another's word, or that your neighbor isn't out to stiff you, or that they are actually even your friend? After all, if their ultimate authority is merely themselves (that is, their own self-interest), then in a village of 50 people, the only thing your neighbor needs to do to make stealing your stuff in their self-interest, is to convince the other 48 people against you.

LASTLY: You claim that all authority is the enemy, and yet your username is BaphometWorshipper, which tells me it is either completely ironic, or you respect the authority of a pagan idol and Satan cognate.

[–] 1 pt

.

And concerning this:

After all, if their ultimate authority is merely themselves (that is, their own self-interest)

Haven't you read Adam Smith?! The Invisible Hand will ensure everything works out for everyone's mutual benefit!

We all know how that worked out.

Highly relevant passage from EMJ's Barren Metal:

The change in motion Newton wrought by making force the central concern of his physics would have profound political and economic implications. Once inertia became the fundamental principle of the universe, strife would become central to all subsequent expressions of the English ideology based on Newtonian physics. According to Adam Smith's reading of Newton, greed or self-love is an instinct which is analogous to inertia in that each body in space seeks its own good without regard to any other body. Greed, which would lead to chaos, is held in check by competition, and the result is Smith's version of perfect motion, otherwise known as the "invisible hand" which assures that private vice is transformed magically (or alchemically) into public good. (pg. 474)

[–] 0 pt

But this is precisely what you are doing. Your own prescription of rugged libertarianism is a commitment to an idea, and to an authority, namely, to yourself. I wonder why you think that millions of people obeying their own scattered authority stand any chance against an ethnically cohesive enemy which is high in social trust and united by a common belief?

Who is the crazy believer here? You give (((them))) way too much credit; do not impose your beliefs on me that there is this ethnically cohseive enemy so high in social trust and united by a common belief.... I see no such evidence. I see a culturally mixed bag of sandniggers & sellout Europeans who've been subjected to the abusive cult behavior just as much as we have been; I see a fractured network of mafia cartels and muderous thugs who occassionally collaborate with one another to pillage and exploit; to perpetuate racketeering operations which ultimately are made possible by the selfish albeit unsuspecting victims of those 'not chosen'. Let them have their 'victims' - you and I already know their game, let's simply remove ourselves from it and carry on with the next civilization. Fear of the repurcussions is irrational and a form of idolotry in itself, perhaps cowadace even. The longer you literally 'buy into' their game; this taxation/usery/money and cult idolotry system the more power they gain. If you create a new 'state' based on the same foundations they will as the saying goes; eventually dumb you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Your own prescription of rugged libertarianism is a commitment to an idea, and to an authority, namely, to yourself.

Then so be it. If you don't agree with my intent to live based on providing for my needs & do not respect the individual authority for which I wish to retain 100% then you may attempt to capture me and nail me to a cross. Do as you may, or try.

You are no different than Karen asking me to wear a mask. Just because you 'believe' in some invisible thing that evidently gives you authority to exert authority over me does not make it OK. You and Karen are the fucking problem.

'yourself' is the most fundamental 'state' is it not? Why must you insist on inflating authority beyond that. That is when things become imbalanced and now we have clown world.

Your American culture has been largely individualized for a century, and it has been commensurate with complete cultural collapse and granulation.

Do not blame me for cultural collapse - I didn't build it. I appreciate when a peaceful culture is able to provide nice things - like a respectful environment that encourages healthy families and robust economy - but I also have no attachment to things I didn't necessarily build; as such the idol of "Amercia" can collapse and I will not be sad. To be sad or to feel bad about the collapse of an idol system that I didn't even sign up to would be selfish since again I took no part; I deserve no free gibs. Maybe it would be different if my ancestral line had a specific notion to maintain "America" but we were either corrupted or it just wasn't a big priority for them; so now I am more inclined to think of alternatives and a "New America" like the old one does not seem like the way to go - as tempting as that is.

Money becomes something that stores energy - to put it properly, money represents a stored quantity of other people's energy.

this is fucking cult idolotry man. You admit to belief in these imaginary units which apparently have 'energy'. The only energy they have is your selfish belief in them. Again at the cost of your own personal authority (and the safety of those others who share your ecosystem - who may now be subjected to the newfound 'power' gained by the idol for which you have subscribed). Rather than demand payment in real goods that can provide for you a better life now you demand it in imaginary units that are subject to the control of the idol who claims authority over said imagaunits and as such the value of what you recieve is taxed before it even enters your hands. Then as it sits in a digital account it is subjected to constant manipulation indirectly (or directly, if you chose to place it in the hands of another idol ie- a 'bank') by those who you allow to define the value of your imagaunit.

They are all able to do this because they can trust that the others

and that trust is the attack surface for (((the enemy))) to exploit. Trust, sure - but unchecked, unmaintained trust is again idolotry and you will be burned; how many times do you have to be lied to and screwed over before you start to realize this notion of a system of infinite trust is impossible ? Stop trusting external authorities who (((offer))) you nice things and instead yes - trust your neighbour - who you can see and enage in commerce in person, for real goods. Do you see how one model is better than the other? The promise of (((money))) is no different to that of the promise of communism. Both are systems that promise a paradise but the reality is different; so is the historical record as you point out. Let's stop the insanity. You may fantasize about a high tech world with sharks with laser beams on their heads and flying cars but that fantasy is your 'belief' - I not longer am a child and wish not to fantasize anylonger; it is time to simply live in balance with nature for it is the imbalances and 'fantasies' that are killing us.

Growing crops is going to trap him into the cycle of nature, and take up his time.

You mean like, trapped in the cycle of nature that is our world ? It doesn't matter if Paul makes a billion bow and arrows, he is not going to excape the cycle of nature unless he builds a portal to another dimension. If Paul is frustrated I might suggest he simply takes a little more pride in his crop growing and puts the fruits of his labour into even more valualbe things like the family he can sustain with that effort (instead of gambling it on a bow and arrow manufacturing deal; unless of course his crop biz gets so wildly successful that it is not necessarily a gamble to experiment).

If, however, Paul has amassed some money, he can afford to devote himself to the gamble of possibly creating something very valuable.

Now you are selling me on the degenerate act of gambling and all the fantastical things one can do with money; please spare me. I am not going to sit through your MLM pitch on why I must use your latest innovation here - sorry its a tool of usery & military industrialists; you are fool for particpating in their system or for relinquishing 'your energy' into such things.

money stores its value indefinitely,

again, who is doing the proclaiming now. This is a fallacy.
you have indefinite value until the day you die so maybe better to provide for yourself with tangible fruits that provide for your phyiscal well being instead of relying on stagnat dead items that will only burden you on your path to death.

At harvest time, you'd idolize crops. In winter, you'd idolize deer meat and hides. Food has been a substantial means of manipulating entire societies in the past. Look at Communist China or Bolshevik Russia.

indeed, and this is why they are preparing the masses for the next stages of idolory which will be based on control of food supply (the new currency). we are in the final stages of collapse of the idol unit that is money and they know this so they seem to be busy preparing the next stage which will of course just be a new idolotry system, but one which forces those of us who wish to reject their authority to participate.

I wouldn't call the desire for a basic human need such as food idolotry - perhaps if you consumed more than you needed it could be called that but otherwise this again falls within the realm of one's individual needs; one's own individual right to authority over their immediate ecosystem to sustain their needs. At harvest time, you don't idolize - you do what you need to do to survive; ini the winter you don't idolize you hunt for what you need. The excess you can choose to perserve, share with others or selfishly indulge into for yourself beyond what you need at the time but again to your own peril - such is the cycle of nature we cannnot escape.

What is going to cause people to trust one another's word, or that your neighbor isn't out to stiff you, or that they are actually even your friend?

You can't pick your family but you can pick your friends. If you don't trust your neighbors you don't have to engage with them - if all your neighbors are untrustworhty (idol worshippers) it might be a sign to find a new homeland; you point out the rightful problem - if you live in a village of 48 others who are so quick to giveaway authority you maybe living in the wrong village.

Seeking not to 'unify' with people like that, hence trolling Poal for more 'enlightened' like yourself and I mean that sincerely - the fact we can have a conversaion about these things implies cooperation which is obviously first step to unity.

I would question the stability of maintinaing community with you however, since you are going to invite idolorty into the picture; the very cause of our problem today.

[–] 0 pt

Masks.

[–] 0 pt (edited )

That was way too clever for this early in the day. I've got nothing, other than to say that it isn't the masks, but some admixture of fear of the state and of abstract entities posited by the state, i.e. creeping death.

It is a mirror of religion, where the state steps in as God, and the devil remains the snake hdiing in the grass, in the form of microscopic infectious agents.

It only makes my point stronger, however. The state is mimicking the Church in every conceivable psychological facet. In fact, we might think of the predicament as one where the state has usurped the Church in its role of defining our moral predicament in the world, where the state tells us what the devil is and doles out the means of salvation.

But the key difference, and ultimately why these ploys by the state always fail, is that Catholicism was not merely the exaltation of fear, but also of beauty, truth, and goodness.

Machiavellian rule by fear can unite a people, but only in the loosest way. Joy, hope, and love must enter reality, and this is precisely what is missing from the current paradigm. Authority must transcend man, or fear will rule, which is only as unifying as the extent to which people lack hope.