The Heresy books | Poal: Say what you want.

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[–] • 2 pts

I don't know if we'll ever get the full scene of what happened on the Vengeful Spirit. I think some hints of my theory will be dropped all throughout the story, but they have to leave this crucial moment somewhat ambiguous. The results are the same- Horus is obliterated completely, Sanguinius is dead and the Black Rage curse is unleashed, and the Emperor is fatally wounded. This is the result we need to reach- it's just a matter of how we get there, and I just think the story we have been given clashes with the Emperor's personality.

He didn't really have much love for his sons. He manipulated the shit out of them, and views them as tools and weapons. He may have developed some attachment to some of them, and I think if Horus SUDDENLY turned on him out of nowhere, he might have trouble bringing himself to do what he had to do...

But again, decades had passed by the time Horus's forces reached Terra. The Emperor had spent a lot of time planning with Malcador to defend the palace. He would've had plenty of time to come to terms with the fact that his favorite tool, Horus, was completely in the claws of Chaos by now, and not even Russ spearing him with the Emperor's spear was enough to break him out of his madness. Allowing Horus to fatally wound the Emperor was the final nail in the coffin of the Emperor's grand plan, the act that ended humanity's second golden age in space. The Emperor should have the will, the foresight, and the ability to do what needed to be done and kill Horus on sight.

Remember the Thunder Warriors? You know, the precursors to Space Marines who helped the Emperor unify Terra? What'd he do to those loyal warriors? He had them ruthlessly culled by the Custodes and Dark Angels, and then fabricated a story about their glorious deaths fighting against the final holdouts on Terra. If Big E would fabricate that, if he would trick the Mechanicum into believing he's the Omnissiah... why wouldn't he concoct a lie that turns his most noble, most beloved by the people son, a literal angel, into a martyr who died for him and humanity? It's a very similar lie, now that I type it out... would be right in there with the Emperor's past behavior.

The Human Webway Project was already ruined, yes, and it was likely the Emperor would need to sit on the Golden Throne for a very long time at least... but his fatal wounding ensured it. It was also his apotheosis, the turning point that led to the spread of the Imperial Creed. He knew mankind and their history well, he knew the power/dangers of religion... and he would know how to turn a situation like this into his favor, I believe.

There's also a passage in... I think it was Master of Mankind, where he's talking to Malcador, and it's revealed that The Emperor knew all along that whichever Primarch was appointed Warmaster would be the one who ended up betraying him. A lot of fans speculate that this is why the Lion or Sanguinius weren't chosen for the position. Horus was actually the "weakest" opponent he could arrange. He was aware of this inevitability long before even Lorgar fell.

And it was actually a short story I listened to on YouTube while at work today, I believe it was fan-written, on a channel called Vox in the Void. A fantastic audio drama YT channel, I highly recommend any of their work. Great voice actors, great stories- they have some really good horror stories up there (I love 40k horror above all else). Check them out if you get a chance.

I don't know if we'll ever get the full scene of what happened on the Vengeful Spirit. I think some hints of my theory will be dropped all throughout the story, but they have to leave this crucial moment somewhat ambiguous. The results are the same- Horus is obliterated completely, Sanguinius is dead and the Black Rage curse is unleashed, and the Emperor is fatally wounded. This is the result we need to reach- it's just a matter of *how* we get there, and I just think the story we have been given clashes with the Emperor's personality. He didn't really have much love for his sons. He manipulated the shit out of them, and views them as tools and weapons. He may have developed some attachment to some of them, and I think if Horus SUDDENLY turned on him out of nowhere, he might have trouble bringing himself to do what he had to do... But again, decades had passed by the time Horus's forces reached Terra. The Emperor had spent a lot of time planning with Malcador to defend the palace. He would've had plenty of time to come to terms with the fact that his favorite tool, Horus, was completely in the claws of Chaos by now, and not even Russ spearing him with the Emperor's spear was enough to break him out of his madness. Allowing Horus to fatally wound the Emperor was the final nail in the coffin of the Emperor's grand plan, the act that ended humanity's second golden age in space. The Emperor should have the will, the foresight, and the ability to do what needed to be done and kill Horus on sight. Remember the Thunder Warriors? You know, the precursors to Space Marines who helped the Emperor unify Terra? What'd he do to those loyal warriors? He had them ruthlessly culled by the Custodes and Dark Angels, and then fabricated a story about their glorious deaths fighting against the final holdouts on Terra. If Big E would fabricate that, if he would trick the Mechanicum into believing he's the Omnissiah... why wouldn't he concoct a lie that turns his most noble, most beloved by the people son, a literal angel, into a martyr who died for him and humanity? It's a very similar lie, now that I type it out... would be right in there with the Emperor's past behavior. The Human Webway Project was already ruined, yes, and it was likely the Emperor would need to sit on the Golden Throne for a very long time at least... but his fatal wounding ensured it. It was also his apotheosis, the turning point that led to the spread of the Imperial Creed. He knew mankind and their history well, he knew the power/dangers of religion... and he would know how to turn a situation like this into his favor, I believe. There's also a passage in... I think it was Master of Mankind, where he's talking to Malcador, and it's revealed that **The Emperor knew all along that whichever Primarch was appointed Warmaster would be the one who ended up betraying him.** A lot of fans speculate that this is why the Lion or Sanguinius weren't chosen for the position. Horus was actually the "weakest" opponent he could arrange. He was aware of this inevitability long before even Lorgar fell. And it was actually a short story I listened to on YouTube while at work today, I believe it was fan-written, on a channel called Vox in the Void. A fantastic audio drama YT channel, I highly recommend any of their work. Great voice actors, great stories- they have some really good horror stories up there (I love 40k horror above all else). Check them out if you get a chance.

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[–] • 0 pt

> Remember the Thunder Warriors? You know, the precursors to Space Marines who helped the Emperor unify Terra? What'd he do to those loyal warriors? He had them ruthlessly culled by the Custodes and Dark Angels, and then fabricated a story about their glorious deaths fighting against the final holdouts on Terra. If Big E would fabricate that, if he would trick the Mechanicum into believing he's the Omnissiah... why wouldn't he concoct a lie that turns his most noble, most beloved by the people son, a literal angel, into a martyr who died for him and humanity? It's a very similar lie, now that I type it out... would be right in there with the Emperor's past behavior.

Yep the Emperor was a MASSIVE cunt, malcador too (the buried dagger reinforces this)

> The Human Webway Project was already ruined, yes, and it was likely the Emperor would need to sit on the Golden Throne for a very long time at least... but his fatal wounding ensured it.

I thought his intention was for Magnus to take the throne as he was (almost) just as powerful psyker and that was what he was created for, for after the war?

>There's also a passage in... I think it was Master of Mankind, where he's talking to Malcador, and it's revealed that The Emperor knew all along that whichever Primarch was appointed Warmaster would be the one who ended up betraying him. A lot of fans speculate that this is why the Lion or Sanguinius weren't chosen for the position. Horus was actually the "weakest" opponent he could arrange. He was aware of this inevitability long before even Lorgar fell.

Love that, its been a while since I read that book but the fact he knew he was going to lose a son/be betrayed so he had to pick the weak link. I would have guessed he would have maybe gone with Lorgar but maybe at the time his devotion to the Emperor would have outweight the temptation to chaos.

Ive come across Vox in the void's channel before. Are they all fan written or does he do audio for some of the other stories too?

>> Remember the Thunder Warriors? You know, the precursors to Space Marines who helped the Emperor unify Terra? What'd he do to those loyal warriors? He had them ruthlessly culled by the Custodes and Dark Angels, and then fabricated a story about their glorious deaths fighting against the final holdouts on Terra. If Big E would fabricate that, if he would trick the Mechanicum into believing he's the Omnissiah... why wouldn't he concoct a lie that turns his most noble, most beloved by the people son, a literal angel, into a martyr who died for him and humanity? It's a very similar lie, now that I type it out... would be right in there with the Emperor's past behavior. Yep the Emperor was a MASSIVE cunt, malcador too (the buried dagger reinforces this) >> The Human Webway Project was already ruined, yes, and it was likely the Emperor would need to sit on the Golden Throne for a very long time at least... but his fatal wounding ensured it. I thought his intention was for Magnus to take the throne as he was (almost) just as powerful psyker and that was what he was created for, for after the war? >>There's also a passage in... I think it was Master of Mankind, where he's talking to Malcador, and it's revealed that The Emperor knew all along that whichever Primarch was appointed Warmaster would be the one who ended up betraying him. A lot of fans speculate that this is why the Lion or Sanguinius weren't chosen for the position. Horus was actually the "weakest" opponent he could arrange. He was aware of this inevitability long before even Lorgar fell. Love that, its been a while since I read that book but the fact he knew he was going to lose a son/be betrayed so he had to pick the weak link. I would have guessed he would have maybe gone with Lorgar but maybe at the time his devotion to the Emperor would have outweight the temptation to chaos. Ive come across Vox in the void's channel before. Are they all fan written or does he do audio for some of the other stories too?

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[–] • 1 pt

I thought his intention was for Magnus to take the throne as he was (almost) just as powerful psyker and that was what he was created for, for after the war?

It's implied that this is what the Emperor had made Magnus for, specifically. There's a scene after Magnus's fall, where he confronts the Emperor psychically, and the Emperor shows him a vision, even offering forgiveness at this point (this is before the invasion of Terra, but not too long before): A vision of mankind at its best, conquered the entire galaxy... and Magnus sitting upon the Golden Throne, with a "serene look" upon his face. Compare this to the Emperor and Malcador upon the Throne- in horrific agony, indescribable to a human mind, the Emperor just BARELY holding everything together.

The Webway Project was ruined when Magnus tried to warn the Emperor of the betrayal of Horus- Magnus sort of accidentally busted a hole in the Webway, creating a Warp Rift... right underneath the Imperial Palace on Terra. The Emperor had to sit on the Throne for a while, using all of his power to just hold the fucking thing closed, or else Terra would be swallowed up by a Warp storm. He only leaves the Throne to go confront Horus, Malcador taking his place. Despite being an Alpha+ level psyker and perpetual, Malcador was able to operate the Throne for only a few hours, before turning to dust.

However, I wonder if the Emperor returned from killing Horus, mostly uninjured... would he be more able to handle the Throne? Did his physical maiming leave him with ONLY his psyker powers (the greatest in the galaxy), so his ONLY option is to sit the Throne, in a a death-like coma for 10,000+ years? Hard to say.

Love that, its been a while since I read that book but the fact he knew he was going to lose a son/be betrayed so he had to pick the weak link. I would have guessed he would have maybe gone with Lorgar but maybe at the time his devotion to the Emperor would have outweight the temptation to chaos.

Hah, Lorgar always gets shit on- rightfully so, but people underestimate him. He was certainly the weakest physically of all the Primarchs, and perhaps the least respected among his brothers... but remember, with some nudging from Kor Phaeron and Erebus, Lorgar engineered the Horus Heresy. He made Angron into a Daemon Prince. He essentially gave Space Marines over to Chaos in legion strength! His power isn't about fighting, or commanding- it's manipulation and charisma.

But I agree that Horus was a bit of an odd choice- he was also very charismatic, beloved by all of his brothers except Corvus (who hated him) and, I think Jaghatai didn't really like Horus... but all of the rest loved him, thought he was one of the greatest among them. Even the bitter Mortarion had to admit that he was the best choice for Warmaster. But besides his charisma, incredible command ability, what else did he really have? The Luna Wolves were known for their "speartip" style attacks, but they sort of lacked the identity/traits that the other legions had- they're kind of generic, IMO.

Maybe Big E knew this, too, and that this vanilla style, and having spent the most time with Horus (or maybe Omegon?), he deemed that if one had to fall, it should be him? I don't know why he wouldn't pick like... Curze, who was largely despised by ALL of the other Primarchs- he'd have trouble convincing the others to rebel, so it'd be just one legion going rogue (which may have happened already, twice with the lost legions) instead of a couple going rogue, and the most charismatic among them convincing a full half of the legions to join him.

Just imagine the nightmare though... if the Lion was made Warmaster. Or Sanguinius, or Dorn, or Guilliman... They might've been able to convince more than half of the legions to join them, and they would've all been more effective leaders and fighters than Horus (when granted the same boons of Chaos as he gained). The Emperor decided it HAD to be Horus, but he didn't make any real preparations for it... didn't even mentally prepare himself for the day he'd have to kill him. The Emperor has made a lot of questionable decisions...

As far as Vox in the Void, I believe all of the stories I've listened to have been fan-written, but you wouldn't be able to tell that by listening. They seem to choose only high quality stuff, written by talented authors/fans, you can feel their passion in the work.

You may have also heard of Baldemort? He does great lore videos, but he also tells stories, has a fantastic voice for it.

>I thought his intention was for Magnus to take the throne as he was (almost) just as powerful psyker and that was what he was created for, for after the war? It's implied that this is what the Emperor had made Magnus for, specifically. There's a scene after Magnus's fall, where he confronts the Emperor psychically, and the Emperor shows him a vision, even offering forgiveness at this point (this is before the invasion of Terra, but not too long before): A vision of mankind at its best, conquered the entire galaxy... and Magnus sitting upon the Golden Throne, with a "serene look" upon his face. Compare this to the Emperor and Malcador upon the Throne- in horrific agony, indescribable to a human mind, the Emperor just BARELY holding everything together. The Webway Project was ruined when Magnus tried to warn the Emperor of the betrayal of Horus- Magnus sort of accidentally busted a hole in the Webway, creating a Warp Rift... right underneath the Imperial Palace on Terra. The Emperor had to sit on the Throne for a while, using all of his power to just hold the fucking thing closed, or else Terra would be swallowed up by a Warp storm. He only leaves the Throne to go confront Horus, Malcador taking his place. Despite being an Alpha+ level psyker and perpetual, Malcador was able to operate the Throne for only a few hours, before turning to dust. However, I wonder if the Emperor returned from killing Horus, mostly uninjured... would he be more able to handle the Throne? Did his physical maiming leave him with ONLY his psyker powers (the greatest in the galaxy), so his ONLY option is to sit the Throne, in a a death-like coma for 10,000+ years? Hard to say. >Love that, its been a while since I read that book but the fact he knew he was going to lose a son/be betrayed so he had to pick the weak link. I would have guessed he would have maybe gone with Lorgar but maybe at the time his devotion to the Emperor would have outweight the temptation to chaos. Hah, Lorgar always gets shit on- rightfully so, but people underestimate him. He was certainly the weakest physically of all the Primarchs, and perhaps the least respected among his brothers... but remember, with some nudging from Kor Phaeron and Erebus, Lorgar engineered the Horus Heresy. He made Angron into a Daemon Prince. He essentially gave Space Marines over to Chaos in legion strength! His power isn't about fighting, or commanding- it's manipulation and charisma. But I agree that Horus was a bit of an odd choice- he was also very charismatic, beloved by all of his brothers except Corvus (who hated him) and, I think Jaghatai didn't really like Horus... but all of the rest loved him, thought he was one of the greatest among them. Even the bitter Mortarion had to admit that he was the best choice for Warmaster. But besides his charisma, incredible command ability, what else did he really have? The Luna Wolves were known for their "speartip" style attacks, but they sort of lacked the identity/traits that the other legions had- they're kind of generic, IMO. Maybe Big E knew this, too, and that this vanilla style, and having spent the most time with Horus (or maybe Omegon?), he deemed that if one had to fall, it should be him? I don't know why he wouldn't pick like... Curze, who was largely despised by ALL of the other Primarchs- he'd have trouble convincing the others to rebel, so it'd be just one legion going rogue (which may have happened already, twice with the lost legions) instead of a couple going rogue, and the most charismatic among them convincing a full half of the legions to join him. Just imagine the nightmare though... if the Lion was made Warmaster. Or Sanguinius, or Dorn, or Guilliman... They might've been able to convince more than half of the legions to join them, and they would've all been more effective leaders and fighters than Horus (when granted the same boons of Chaos as he gained). The Emperor decided it HAD to be Horus, but he didn't make any real preparations for it... didn't even mentally prepare himself for the day he'd have to kill him. The Emperor has made a lot of questionable decisions... As far as Vox in the Void, I believe all of the stories I've listened to have been fan-written, but you wouldn't be able to tell that by listening. They seem to choose only high quality stuff, written by talented authors/fans, you can feel their passion in the work. You may have also heard of Baldemort? He does great lore videos, but he also tells stories, has a fantastic voice for it.

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