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Put down your guard for a moment. It isn't the case that this Jew is 'out to get you'.

The Problem of Evil is a massive issue within theology, and it represents what is probably the greatest stumbling block for rational people who ultimately reject faith. Understanding evil is perhaps one of the most important things that anyone can learn in spiritual development and in an effort to improve their lives. Jordan Peterson seems to have become popular, at least in part, because of his insistence on addressing evil.

The wisdom contained in this single video is vast. It will require having some background in order for it to "hit", but I hope that it resonates with you and spurs your interest in wisdom you may have rejected on ethnic grounds. There is a great deal here which applies to the early parts of the biblical Genesis.

Skip to about 1:30 in the video to avoid the obnoxiously long intro sequence.

Put down your guard for a moment. It isn't the case that this Jew is 'out to get you'. The Problem of Evil is a massive issue within theology, and it represents what is probably the greatest stumbling block for rational people who ultimately reject faith. Understanding evil is perhaps one of the most important things that anyone can learn in spiritual development and in an effort to improve their lives. Jordan Peterson seems to have become popular, at least in part, because of his insistence on addressing evil. The wisdom contained in this single video is vast. It will require having some background in order for it to "hit", but I hope that it resonates with you and spurs your interest in wisdom you may have rejected on ethnic grounds. There is a great deal here which applies to the early parts of the biblical Genesis. Skip to about 1:30 in the video to avoid the obnoxiously long intro sequence.

(post is archived)

[–] 0 pt

The only path for the Absolute to be realized is a temporal one, for ignorance to precede the realization, and hence our worldly predicaments. We humans are the means by which the Absolute comes fully into self-realization, but only by being effectively self-deluded with ignorance to begin with.

I think a certain reading of what you've said here can be considered true, if we add a caveat:

The Absolute, as reality, comes into self-realization through us, insofar as we participate in the Absolute's reality.

My point is that, God (the Absolute) does not need us for anything, let alone self-realization. His very Trinitarian nature is self-knowing - and this nature is eternal, prior to any creation.

But, given that God creates, His creation, insofar as it is real, necessarily participates in Him (that is what creation is). For any created thing to "realize itself", means to realize God. But this cannot be done by what is lower apprehending what is higher; what is higher must condescend to what is lower and enlighten it. This is the purpose of the Incarnation. The Absolute did not just create; He also entered personally into His creation. The eternal united Himself forever with the temporal.

I'm having difficulty expressing my point here. I guess the gist of it is, I think your statement is false prior to creation, but is necessarily true once God has created, since God (the One, the Absolute) is reality, and so is His creation. For reality to self-realize once reality constitutes God + creation, indeed, must involve both God and creation. This is why the Church has always taught that "only one will (God's) was required to create, but two wills (God's and man's) is required for salvation." Given creation, man's participation in salvation - which is nothing more than self-realization - is necessary.

Which is why "good atheists" still go to hell. They have decided to not participate in the self-actualization of reality. And yet they have been made part of reality (again, given that creation took place).

The second part of that Church doctrine I cited ("two wills (God's and man's) is required for salvation") is precisely what you are expressing when you say "We humans are the means by which the Absolute comes fully into self-realization". And of course, the Absolute wants the maximum number of "telors" to participate in this process, but insofar as some of the creatures involved are "telors", following Langan's terminology, their will, in addition to the Absolute will, is inseparable from this process.

@Chiro

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God (the Absolute) does not need us for anything, let alone self-realization

I'm going further and saying "God" doesn't do anything whatsoever and forever. Part of God "not doing anything" is the stilled, empty mind of "Zen", whereby "God's grace" (the Absolute) is beheld directly, without any subject, object, or media.

I think I'm using the term "realize" in two different ways. In the most ordinary sense I know of, realize means "become aware of", yet in another sense "realize" could mean the generative act of becoming real, as per God creating it. The two senses of "realize" aren't unrelated, yet we can still draw a distinction between merely "becoming aware of something" and "something coming into being".

I think your statement is false prior to creation, but is necessarily true once God has created

As Langan notes, knowledge can mean either direct embodiment or else internal modeling, or both.

Prior to creation, as you say, reality is self-configured (realized) strictly via direct self embodiment. At some point after "creation", as an intrinsic aspect of its self embodied self realization, reality is temporarily self-configured (realized) via internal modeling (eg. sentience, perception).

The self-embodiment of reality by reality is the eternal and absolute stasis (grace of God).

The internal modeling of reality by reality is temporal, conditional, relative, and cognitive.

"only one will (God's) was required to create, but two wills (God's and man's) is required for salvation."

The realization of reality per self embodiment and internal modeling (sentience and perception) still isn't complete without the direct realization of the Absolute, which requires a being capable of reality-modeling, meaning perception, and a particular sort of temporary cessation of said being's volitional mental states. The stilled mind of the "internal modeler" defaults to the realization of the eternal grace of God, a process know in the East as Zen, and what could potentially be described in the West as "salvation".

The issue I have with the religious description of "two wills", although fine as poetic allegory, is that neither the cessation of mental activity nor the creation of the cognitive universe are acts of will, but rather it's the cessation of will altogether by which the Absolute is realized, and by which reality is created by God.

As I understand, Satan "falls from heaven", and this to me translates into "the cessation of will by God", namely the will to govern the universe as merely a self-configuration without internal modeling. The observable universe of life and science is a task taken up by "Satan" who oversees the "world" of cognition. Satan is deceptive in the sense that theories underdetermine objects and don't prescribe their own models, and can never predict who will perceive their confirmation. Theories can be true, yet which ones and in what contexts? The debate over science quickly devolves into politics, where politicians want it, and then it stays there unless or until people become aware of a new reality model. At this point a new set of religious myths and allegories wont cut it.

They have decided to not participate in the self-actualization of reality.

I don't think this is even possible. If raw sentience is self-realization and perception is self-modeling, reality is self actualized (to an extent) by default where sentience & perception exist, regardless if the sentient or perceiving being has any clue about metaphysics. I say sentience & perception self-actualize reality "to an extent" because the "full measure" of self-realization is the realization of the Absolute aka "Zen", a reflexive, monastic, self identification process free of duality or trilogy, involving the cessation of will by God & Man alike, amidst the domain of Satan himself, without recourse to will or ability, the only place it (the Absolute) could freely appear.

...their will, in addition to the Absolute will, is inseparable from this process

I'm agreeing the "two wills" are inseparable from the process, yet only because their concurrent cessation is the means by which the Absolute is fully realized. In other words, God ceases to "just be self embodied" and becomes "internally modeling" introducing Satan into the process, which is the only way for perceiving (reality-modeling) beings to freely give up their own will (volition, Karma) and thereby realize the Absolute.

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and this to me translates into "the cessation of will by God", namely the will to govern the universe as merely a self-configuration without internal modeling

Very interesting that you say this. I've recently taken to following an interpretation of the Book of Genesis that suggests that the corporeal world as we know it came about as a result of the Adamic fall.

@Chiro

The observable universe of life and science is a task taken up by "Satan" who oversees the "world" of cognition

Satan is called the Lord of this World, the Prince of Darkness. The spirit of the world and his spirit are the same.

I say sentience & perception self-actualize reality "to an extent" because the "full measure" of self-realization is the realization of the Absolute aka "Zen"

Yes. And what Catholics call salvation is, as you've noted, akin to Zen - and so even if we are all already self-actualized "to an extent", it is the "full measure" that some (many, in fact) eternally forsake. Their consequent suffering is a result of God willing them to be saved (God loving them), but their not willing to be saved. The first will is inclined as necessary (or "ceased amidst the domain of Satan", as you put it), but the second will is not properly inclined, i.e. it remains fixed on the world, not God. The reason this error can persist forever is that once a creature is ensnared by sin, has been deceived by the devil, the grace of God is required to lift them out of it. But fixed on the world so firmly as they are, they will never open themselves up to this grace.

So insofar as I am talking about the "full measure" of self-actualization when I speak of salvation (as the Church teaches, salvation is the vision of God, the Beatific Vision, and once fully possessed, it can never be lost), then indeed, it is possible for some to not obtain it.

Which renders our lives here and now profoundly significant, instead of basically meaningless.