Christianity claims to be all true + Some of Christianity is true => Therefore all of Christianity is true!
Naw man.
Im not trying to be insulting. But I dont see why I should believe any visions at fatima or anywhere else any more than I should believe the latest Q drop. Lot’s of people have visions. Christians tend to see the Virgin. Other people see space aliens or Lord Shiva. It’s what ever occupies your head.
Damn, she's logic-ing us, Peace! That means we'll actually have to go to work. Smart people are awful.
Helena, I'm working on a response to your comment from above. I need to work through some ideas to clear up those paragraphs you said were confusing. Will post tonight or tomorrow.
(Also, Poal was being screwy about posting this comment. It showed it twice, so I deleted one of them. Then they were both gone. So you might have gotten pinged twice for a similar comment.)
Let me clarify. I think there are several non sequiturs in a couple of your paragraphs
...if survival is all that counts, then the beliefs that promote survival ought to be truer.
Well we are dealing with a lot of legacy architecture from when we were monkeys or amphibians or earthworms, so there may be some behaviors that conferred survival in our predecessors. Humans werent built from scratch. But you are somewhat correct although I would not say truer, but more important.
Fire is hot. Ice is cold. If I try to murder my rival, he will try to murder me! Men have penises, and girls have vaginas.
What? I dont see how this follows. Fire is not hot in an absolute sense. It is much colder than the sun. It is hot relative to us. Ice is up to 273 degrees above absolute zero. Lots of stuff colder than an ice cube. But if I grant you all this, I still dont know the point you are making.
We tend to believe things which are true. We think that these things would be true in any possible world like our own, that is, that fire would burn us (or any sufficiently hot thing would burn us).
Fire will burn us != Fire is hot
It becomes senseless to call this a relative truth,
I agree it is a highly inefficient way to deal with fire if you are a human, nevertheless “fire is hot” is not an absolute truth
If the fact that fire burns us isn't true, then you've at least established one truth - that relativism is true.
Wut
Yet if relativism is true, you've also established that belief in it would hurt survival - therefore a true belief would hurt us. This is a contradiction. It makes no sense
Wut
Consider these statements
mugs are useful
fucking little kids is bad
These are both statements many people would agree are true
Is the truth value the same for these statements? I could drink my coffee out of a paper cup or even a shoe and no one is going to lynch me.
How do I process the idea of mugs being useful. What algorithms are running in my brain.
What about the second statement. Is the same circuitry being used when I think about the badness of fucking kids?
If you asked people which of those statements was more true, I bet they would say the second. Its not really more true. But its more important to most people.
I'm still working on a theory about the evolution of true belief in God. I actually think it is coming together. It has become something of a personal project for me because I've been so prone to the kind of thinking in the paper from the OP. I desire an intellectual basis for understanding belief in God in an evolutionary context that doesn't automatically lead us to false belief. So I've actually taken this paper personally haha. It's coming!
I'm frustrating myself! I keep defeating my own argument, so naturally I can't come at you with it. The second that I think I've got it, I find a way to kill it. It's something I'm going to have to continue to think about. You can take the W for now, Helena. Just don't get too comfy with it, k? It might be the case that this just isn't ever going to be an angle of attack, even if I want it to be.
Damn if this didn't feel like an ARM response. Well done. I'm hoping my reply will be able to deal with these objections more aptly than my last one. Like you said, it was 1 a.m. There was nothing in that comment that was very well-formed, particularly the examples of atomic statements I used. I'm going to try to package it a little better.
I will say here that I'm not too concerned yet with getting to beliefs/propositions as complex as morals. I hope to get my point across without getting nearly that deep. Morality is tremendously hard. Statements of value, generally, like the mug one are also hard. I want to try to deal with propositions that we take to be atomic facts, even where the language we use to state them might seem less than precise. The point will be that true facts underlie the utterances.
Her logic was describing a strawman, not what I argued. But I'm sure that wasn't her intention, and you're right, this should be addressed.
I was not saying that evidence of certain Christian claims proves the religion. That would be like using evidence of the subversive effects of homosexuality as proof that Jesus is Lord, which is ridiculous.
Rather, I am saying that there is evidence that the Christian faith itself is true, and that this evidence itself serves as evidence for Christian doctrines such as hell.
I was just saying that a lack of direct evidence for something specific like hell would not constitute a lack of evidence entirely. Prove the cause, and the effect is proven also (given that the cause is what it is).
I was suggesting that there is in fact evidence for the cause (Christianity itself). Namely, public miraculous validation of a Divinity claim, the witness of the Church founders, and the historicity of both.
As I said, validated by the Miracle of the Sun.
(post is archived)