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It would take a large amount of room to completely summarize the evolutionary argument for religious belief. If you're interested to know what the theory consists of, I would highly recommend reading the following paper. It does an excellent job of fully explaining the contemporary understanding of the evolution of religious belief. (If you're a person that denies evolution altogether, forget it for a moment; we'll be granting that it's true for argument's sake.)

https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/BIOT_a_00018.pdf

If you're like me, you'll find the argument made there extremely compelling. I mean...it's good. There doesn't appear to be a single stone unturned. A rational person, who'd been inclined toward belief prior to reading this paper, could very easily walk away convinced against the proposition that God is real, or that anything in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) points to something real.

There is, however, a glaring contradiction in this theory's logic. I am not interested here to pick apart the paper in terms of its specific points. If you'd care to do that after reading the paper, we can do that in the comments. I want to attack a specific assumption made by the paper which is given barely any attention, but which is crucial for its thesis to go through.

Essentially, the argument goes that belief in the supernatural, namely God (and all of the associated social effects of this), were the cause of - not just society's survival - but for the evolution of our society's complexity, and even the sophistication of our cultural practices and institutions, including the development of science (by implication). The paper is concerned with showing the combination of factors that caused religious belief to evolve.

But inserted at the tail end of the paper, after a summary of the combination of factors that causes religion to evolve, is the sneaky phrase:

None of these evolved for religion per se.

This is quite literally the only sentence in the paper which even alludes to the underlying assumption on which the whole theory rests.

What this statement truly says, is that: "None of the factors which contributed to the evolution of religious belief did so because religious belief is true. They each represent independent forces, and religion is basically an accident that emerged from them, which just so happened to be super beneficial." In other words, it's not possible that the object of religious belief, God, is true - instead, all of the factors that came together that made you believe in God are themselves what do all of the work of helping you survive reality.

In the highly critical words of Winnie the Pooh: Oh, bother.

Think about this for a moment. The same combination of factors that caused you to believe in God, is also the same set of factors that caused your society to transcend its primitive state and to begin to discover the truth of the universe via the scientific institution. The former is a counterintuitive belief, according to these two researchers, and the latter is not.

One thing the paper stresses is that our 'supernatural beliefs' are counterintuitive, which is to say that belief in God runs contrary to our regular intuitions about the world. Let's be charitable. Let's grant them that.

Yet, what are we to contrast these counterintuitive God beliefs with? Well, the scientist writing the paper implicitly assumes that the beliefs we can trust about the universe would be our scientific ones. Hmm. Situate this in the evolutionary paradigm, in which everything is attempting to balance tradeoffs and costs of new adaptations for survival against an environment that kills us for getting it wrong, regularly.

So our counter-intuitive beliefs in God were the result of a combination of factors that caused society to evolve massive complexity and intelligence, including the ability to finally gain a scientific (apparently intuitive) grasp of the universe, but this same combination of factors didn't evolve because God was true. God was the counterintuitive part, and science was the intuitive (and true) result, and we should think science tells us true things about reality, but the very belief in God that led us there was an irrational accident.

The combination of factors that evolved to produce belief in God didn't "evolve for religious [truth], per se", but they did evolve to lead us to scientific truth, per se?

Based on what? The paper stipulates that belief in the supernatural (God, heaven, hell, etc.) is counterintuitive, but that our regular intuitive ontologies and observations of the world are supposedly something we ought to put actual stock in.

I wonder how well this holds up in 2021. How intuitive is current cosmology? How intuitive is the Big Bang? How intuitive is quantum mechanics? How intuitive is the mathematical concept of infinity? We are told in this paper that the factors which promoted the evolution of belief in God did not do so because God is true, but that they contributed to the increase in intelligence in mankind that did lead us to so-called true knowledge in the sciences.

I'm emphasizing the evolutionary context because the only thing that matters in this context is survival. There are either adaptations which confer greater survivability, or there are spandrels. But the theory is clear that the belief in God was a causal force in the advancement that led to greater knowledge of the universe, and higher survivability. Is this really a case for God being a spandrel? A spandrel is an accident. A spandrel does not build a church - which leads us to question whether the belief in God is rationally counterintuitive if this very belief opened mankind up to expanding into the real universe in ways it would not have otherwise. Talk about shooting the horse you rode in on.

What do you think? Was God a spandrel?

It would take a large amount of room to completely summarize the evolutionary argument for religious belief. If you're interested to know what the theory consists of, I would highly recommend reading the following paper. It does an excellent job of fully explaining the contemporary understanding of the evolution of religious belief. (If you're a person that denies evolution altogether, forget it for a moment; we'll be granting that it's true for argument's sake.) https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/BIOT_a_00018.pdf If you're like me, you'll find the argument made there extremely *compelling*. I mean...it's *good*. There doesn't appear to be a single stone unturned. A rational person, who'd been inclined toward belief prior to reading this paper, could very easily walk away convinced against the proposition that God is real, or that anything in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) points to something real. There is, however, a glaring contradiction in this theory's logic. I am not interested here to pick apart the paper in terms of its specific points. If you'd care to do that after reading the paper, we can do that in the comments. I want to attack a specific assumption made by the paper which is given barely any attention, but which is crucial for its thesis to go through. Essentially, the argument goes that belief in the supernatural, namely God (and all of the associated social effects of this), were the cause of - not just society's survival - but for the evolution of our society's complexity, and even the sophistication of our cultural practices and institutions, including the development of science (by implication). The paper is concerned with showing the *combination of factors* that caused religious belief to evolve. But inserted at the tail end of the paper, after a summary of the combination of factors that causes religion to evolve, is the sneaky phrase: >None of these evolved for religion per se. This is quite literally the only sentence in the paper which even alludes to the underlying assumption on which the whole theory rests. What this statement truly says, is that: "None of the factors which contributed to the evolution of religious belief did so because religious belief is true. They each represent independent forces, and religion is basically an accident that emerged from them, which just so happened to be super beneficial." In other words, it's not possible that the object of religious belief, God, is *true* - instead, all of the factors that came together that made you believe in God are *themselves* what do all of the work of helping you survive reality. In the highly critical words of Winnie the Pooh: Oh, bother. Think about this for a moment. The same combination of factors that caused you to believe in God, is also the same set of factors that caused your society to transcend its primitive state and to begin to discover the *truth* of the universe via the scientific institution. The former is a counterintuitive belief, according to these two researchers, and the latter is not. One thing the paper stresses is that our 'supernatural beliefs' are **counterintuitive**, which is to say that belief in God runs contrary to our regular intuitions about the world. Let's be charitable. Let's grant them that. Yet, what are we to contrast these counterintuitive God beliefs with? Well, the scientist writing the paper implicitly assumes that the beliefs we *can trust* about the universe would be our scientific ones. Hmm. Situate this in the evolutionary paradigm, in which everything is attempting to balance tradeoffs and costs of new adaptations for survival against an environment that kills us for getting it wrong, regularly. So our counter-intuitive beliefs in God were the result of a combination of factors that caused society to evolve massive complexity and intelligence, including the ability to finally gain a scientific (apparently *intuitive*) grasp of the universe, but this same combination of factors didn't evolve because God was true. God was the counterintuitive part, and science was the intuitive (and true) result, and we should think science tells us true things about reality, but the very belief in God that led us there was an irrational accident. The combination of factors that evolved to produce belief in God didn't "evolve for religious [truth], per se", but they did evolve to lead us to scientific truth, per se? Based on what? The paper stipulates that belief in the supernatural (God, heaven, hell, etc.) is *counterintuitive*, but that our regular intuitive ontologies and observations of the world are supposedly something we ought to put actual stock in. I wonder how well this holds up in 2021. How intuitive is current cosmology? How intuitive is the Big Bang? How intuitive is quantum mechanics? How intuitive is the mathematical concept of infinity? We are told in this paper that the factors which promoted the evolution of belief in God did not do so because God is true, but that they contributed to the increase in intelligence in mankind that *did lead* us to so-called true knowledge in the sciences. I'm emphasizing the evolutionary context because the only thing that matters in this context is survival. There are either adaptations which confer greater survivability, or there are [spandrels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)#:~:text=In%20evolutionary%20biology%2C%20a%20spandrel,direct%20product%20of%20adaptive%20selection.&text=Gould%20and%20Lewontin%20sought%20to,more%20structuralist%20view%20of%20evolution.). But the theory is clear that the belief in God *was a causal force* in the advancement that led to greater knowledge of the universe, and higher survivability. Is this really a case for God being a spandrel? A spandrel is an accident. A spandrel does not build a church - which leads us to question whether the belief in God is rationally counterintuitive if this very belief opened mankind up to expanding into the real universe in ways it would not have otherwise. Talk about shooting the horse you rode in on. What do you think? Was God a spandrel?

(post is archived)

[–] 0 pt

I'm interested moreso with how supernatural beliefs are meant to evolve in the first place. I understand that they throw ToM at it, but I'm just not satisfied. Once the belief exists, I think it is clear that natural selection could favor said belief if it's sum total effects are either neutral or positive. But how did we get there? I think I have a greater dispute with (a) how any belief could be supernatural, and (b) how natural selection could favor - not supernatural belief itself, but - the cognitive processes that would lead to supernatural beliefs.

[–] 0 pt

Whats ToM?

> how natural selection could favor - not supernatural belief itself, but - the cognitive processes that would lead to supernatural beliefs.

Like I said, It would seem that some accurate mental facsimile of the world is too resource intensive. A ruder, more symbolic interpretation of the world with a lot of binary operations to process decisions is probably closer to our real mental circuitry. Do (good) or Don’t Do (evil).

Is it a penalty to explain incorrectly that the sun or stars are controlled by a relatively benevolent sky father? No.( Unless youre a rocket scientist. But weve already agreed they are spandrels. Lol.)

How did the theory of a sky father arise? Accidentally probably through the same neurological structures that help us understand an idea like “Father”. So accidentally, but not entirely randomly.

[–] 0 pt (edited )

ToM is theory of mind.

It basically represents our folk psychological theories, how we model other minds in terms of explaining the behaviors of others. We handle the problem of other minds by attempting to internally model them (empathizing or putting 'ourselves in their shoes'). A ToM would be how we judged someone's expressions about their hand (which we can't see directly) when we play poker. I see this facial expression...why might I make that face if I were him? In other words, it is an adaptation for decision making with sub-optimal information or, in principle, inaccessible information.

That theory is supposed to transfer in terms of its tendency to agent-seek to phenomena we cannot explain according to our current theories. Ancient man encounters thunderstorm, cannot explain this complex event in any reductive way to meteorology or chemistry or physics, so it must be the intentional act of a storm god.

Many would say our tendency to believe in the supernatural is an over-extension of faculties that were very useful in dealing with other people, perhaps even trying to figure out our own mother's behaviors as young people, for example. (How do I get that boob...I'm starving!)

Of course, all of this is based on a LOT of assumption. Just because something sounds intuitively reasonable, does not make it true of reality.

There is something about this that still bothers me very much...that anything we cannot explain is treated as a living and intentional being.

Perhaps there is survival advantage in this, but something about it all is an insult to mind itself. There is kind of a 'church of progress' pomp in it, which looks back on all ancient people and finds blithering idiots, who can build fire and shape tools but at the first sign of a weather event, fall to their knees at muh sky person.

I don't know why it isn't right, but I am confident it's not.

Like I said, It would seem that some accurate mental facsimile of the world is too resource intensive.

I agree with this completely, however, as that mental model abstracts from the complexity of the world and begins to assemble stereotypes and heuristic behaviors, it runs a great risk. If the model is too simple, you're dead.

To be robust enough, we would expect there to be an underlying logic, which did not simply go from the real world into Candyland because of a need to simplify. We need to be careful not to let imagination be a cart we place before the horse.

This brain had to evolve in a live-or-die situation long before we developed imaginative faculties. There must be underlying logical structures involved in our modeling which would be unfavorable toward belief (only for the sake of simplifying the world) in fairy dust as a useful theory of the unknown threats in the world.

@PS

[–] 0 pt

Ok. That makes sense. We were thinking along the same lines, although you don’t like these particular lines.

Don’t think of it so much as primitive man being a moron. Think of it as primitive man being a different kind of moron.

Look at the belief of modern hunter-gatherers like native americans or australian abos. They think spirits live in rocks and trees. New guineans believed they could acquire the power of other people by eating their brains or flesh. There are comparable tales about pagan europeans and middle easterners. Lots of human sacrifice attested to with the Celts, the Greeks, the Norse, the Hebrews, etc. Candyland type shit. Less than 100 generations ago.

How much have we progressed? SJWs believe in something called gender which afaik is not a naturally observable trait, seemingly inferred to exist by purely intuitive (spiritual?) means, which varies independently of biological sex and must be accomodated on your driver’s license! This is bonkers. An interesting turn of events for progress and the rational atheists .