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545

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[–] [deleted] 0 pt (edited )

Cherry picked, a lot of the examples he cites here fall apart when you see the full episode, or even when you consider the real meaning of the scenes in the full context of the show as a whole.

  1. Church attendance is not the same thing as being Christian:

The first thing this guy gets wrong is that he conflates attending church services with being Christian, as any Christian on this site can tell you, Church =/= Christianity, lots of us are Christian, but not church attending, lots of us here are atheists, but still attend a Christian church.

With that out of the way, we move onto his first point, that attending church is shown as being boring, and people are willing to do what they can to get out of it, note that these examples are not attacking Christianity, Homer isn't talking about leaving Christianity, he's talking about not ATTENDING CHURCH.

He is a Christian at the beginning of the episode, he's one when it ends, and he remains one all throughout, his conflict is solely regarding going into a specific building every Sunday, not about whether he thinks God exists or not, or whether Jesus is his son, and whether he needs to accept him as his lord and savior in order to be redeemed for his sins, all of these axioms are never questioned in the episode.

The only quote I can find from Homer in that episode that argues against Christianity and not just against church attendance, is the "what if we have the wrong religion?" question, but throughout the episode, it's shown that Homer is still a God-fearing Christian, so he probably is not meaning to make an argument against religion, but rather making any argument he can to get out of church attendance.

  1. Church is boring:

The criticism of church as being something boring, that husbands and sons had to be dragged to (Marge and Lisa were the ones dragging them along), was included because it was very true of 90's families, this is coming from someone who was around in the 90's, I know for a fact that the typical kid was not happy with getting dressed up, going to a building where some man would give a speech while the kid would be restlessly kicking his legs, you might as well be taking him to a boring play or presentation.

This was a very in-touch with reality take on the lives of a Christian kid, especially a boy, who would have such energy in them and so many distractions of the era that he'd be absolutely explosive by the time the service ended., the best part of the day for him would be that he gets to see his friends when the service was over. for this not to be included in a comedy show of this sort would be something that would stand out as a missed opportunity and would make the show look out of touch with the common American experience.

Also, note that it's only homer and Bart who oppose going to church, this shows that the episode is PRO-CHURCH, because of the glaring elephant in the room here.

Homer and Bart are supposed to be idiots who learn a lesson, Marge and Lisa are supposed to be the wise ones who get it right from the start:

A lot of the commentary in this video on what "The Simpsons" supposedly thinks about God falls apart when you realize that Homer and Bart are supposed to represent the worst of Americans, Bart and Homer are supposed to be what the author considers to be imbecilic, and this is obvious.

Lisa and Marge are supposed to be the wise ones that speak for the author, and they take the opposing side to Homer and Bart in each of these episodes, and by the end of each episode, whenever they disagree, it's almost always Marge and Lisa who are vindicated, and homer and Bart end up switching to the female side of things.

Once again, You'd do well to remember, Homer is, and always was supposed to be, the example of what the show's creators DISAGREE with, he's an idiot, and is almost always shown as being wrong on whatever point he believes in by the end of the episode, Bart is the same, but in child form. Lisa and Marge are supposed to be the examples of what the show's creators are promoting, and both of them disagree with Homer and Bart on these positions.

  1. "Even God agrees with Homer":

This is bullshit as well, look at the clips again, god only speaks to homer in his dreams, he's easily persuaded by Homer's meager arguments, and shares Homer's opinions on everything, he even shares Homer's passion for HandEgg, the show is making things clear as day when it shows Homer is fast asleep during these encounters, this is Homer's concept of God, not the actual God of the Bible, but the way one mortal perceives him, and not a particularly bright one, either.

"we should all be these floating atoms in space, doing our own thing":

In this episode, Homer becomes a hermitic monk, a very Christian one, but one who cloisters himself in his home, and observes God in private (you know, like how Jesus explicitly tells his followers to), he is not only still Christian, but he's actually living truer to the Bible's recommendations on being Christian than most Christians in the show.

The episode says nothing about moral relativism, and maintains that morality is still within a strictly Christian framework, this guy is inserting his own bullshit where it doesn't fit, in order to shoehorn this episode into saying things it isn't even suggesting or implying.

It's painful to see this level of shoehorning, I think he came to the conclusion before making the episode, and when things didn't quite fit, he tried to force it in, just cut this part out and find a place where you can better point out the existence of an anti-Christian position.

  1. "The Bible is gross":

the point of the clip was that the bible is engrossing, but Bart, who is an idiotic kid pre-occupied with looking "cool" would be afraid of anyone catching him enjoying it's contents, he objects to it for the same reason that he objects to doing ballet and having fun doing it, because it hurts his image in the eyes of other kids and himself, he sees himself as this edgy rebellious and masculine figure, so anything that is not these things is something he's going to reject, the show makes this part clear.

Bart is what the creator of the show is using as an example for what they oppose someone being like, he's supposed to set a good example by being the bad example.

This guy is just going on with saying things that the show is not saying, or even implying, even if we solely go by the parts he presents, and pretend we have no cue what "The Simpsons is", it's mostly just him going off about what is important to him.

I absolutely hate it when people do this, take some source material, and make less than a percent of it a part of your "analysis" and the rest of it is just you going on and on about your own opinions. This is not an analysis, this is just you giving us your take on something while disguising it as being related to something else.

It's like someone whose nominally giving a report on a book, but spends most of their time talking about animal rights, when the contents of the book they did a report on had little if anything to do with such a subject. if the book is well-known, they are essentially just hijacking the book's popularity to trick us into listening to them talk about something completely different.

An analysis should be at least half source material and half commentary, and the commentary should keep it's contents strictly within the boundaries of what the source material touches upon, not insert something into the source material that it hasn't even eluded to.

  1. "prayer has no place in public school, facts have no place in organized religion"

The next clip has the following quote from super-intendant Chalmers, in this episode, Flanders replaces Skinner as the principal, Chalmers is pleased with his work until he heard a prayer on the announcement box, whereupon Flanders is fired and Skinner re-hired.

Chalmers is shown to be an oppressively beurocratic figure, so it makes sense he would be so afraid of violating the separation of church and state and getting his school's administration in trouble.

The statement "facts have no place in organized religion" is something I'd think that Christians would agree with, after all, don't they talk about "walking by faith, but by sight" and presuming the existence of God, rather than the opposite, solely on the basis of the "witness of the holy spirit"? The basic claim is pretty much the same, take it from Jesus himself, when he said to doubting Thomas: "you have seen me and believed in me, blessed are those who believe in me and have not seen me".

Was Chalmers Jewish? I don't think I ever recall seeing what his ethnicity/religion was, Is Devon just making something up here? can anyone send me a link? i know for a fact that Krusty was Jewish, that was a major plot point.

  1. "Everything is a sin, we aren't even supposed to go to the bathroom"

I don't know what part of the Bible would make us not able to go to the bathroom, but depending upon the circumstances, the Bible gives quite a few ways that a divorce could happen, of the things that are considered sinful in the Bible, divorce isn't one of them so long as it's done at the right time, though a divorce under circumstances outside what the Bible describes would be (possibly, could be that there might be nothing wrong with it, but it wouldn't be biblically proscribed, either).

I do know that the Bible is indeed very impractical, most Christians don't obey the entirety of the Bible because it would be impractical for them to do so, see "the year of living Biblically" to see a but of what that was like for a guy who tried it, and immediately he had to throw a lot of stuff out of his experiment because quite a bit of the Bible's suggestions would land him in jail or in desperate poverty.

Yes, a lot of the Bible's contents regarding what people should do, or should not do, are indeed "silly", there was one cult that wanted to be true to the Bible before the law, and they got busted for allowing children to have sex with adults, they figured that since there was no age of consent in the Bible, that they should not recognize it either, the closest thing to an age of consent mentioned in the Bible was "it would be better for one to drown with a millstone around their neck than it would be for them to lead little ones to sin", but the Bible never mentions having sex while underage as being sinful in the first place, the thing that was mentioned was leading little ones to worship other Gods, so I guess it was ok for them to "marry" grown men to little girls.

That next clip was of Homer, who knows nothing of anything, saying that the Bible teaches nothing but gender roles, this is the same episode where he's depicted as a sexist oaf, the takeaway most audiences would get from such a part of the episode is that "Homer knows nothing of the Bible AND has regressive opinions". the rest of the show, and indeed the very episode featured here, goes out of it's way to show this to be the message we are supposed to be getting.

Okay, now it's just Devon talking about atheism and how he dislikes it, this is just "Simpsons" in the background.

  1. "the existence of the soul"

in this episode, Bart sells his soul to Milhouse, he loses the ability to project his breath, he loses the ability to laugh, and other supernatural events occur that indicate that the soul is a very real thing.

It's telling how dishonest an "analysis" this I when he shows an episode that gives supernatural evidence in the episode of the existence of the soul, and claims that the very same "The Simpsons" episode rejects the existence of the soul, either he didn't watch the episode he's showing us, or he did, saw that it had the opposite message he wanted it to have, and then selectively edited parts out of it to make a claim to the contrary.

At this point his editing is getting choppy, I think he's trying to trick us into thinking that "The Simpsons" is promoting a message about religion that it actually isn't, my feeling is strong that he saw these episodes, and they didn't have the blatantly anti-Christian messaging he wanted, and so resorted to this misrepresentation.

Again, it's all quotes from Bart and Homer, these aren't characters to respect, they are comics, goofballs, idiots, you are supposed to point to them and laugh at how stupid they are, not agree with their statements s though they are insightful.

  1. Devon has told an outright lie.

"nearly everything that came out in the 90's has attacked Christianity"

Actually, the 90's was full of very pro-Christian programming, on TV and in the movies, this is a quote that no one who was alive in the 90's and remember the movies that were featured then could honestly agree with, and these weren't just Christian shows and movies, but movies and TV shows that merely had pro-Christian messaging, that the Christian god was real, and that the Jesus story was true, and that both of them are good, and that Christians are good people.

I grew up in the 90's Devon, don't bullshit me, I remember when the movie "left behind" broke bank as a blockbuster, and not only sold well, but got sequels released that didn't do as well, but didn't do badly, either. The books were major hits, and it even got a shitty video game made of it.

I saw "bruce almighty" and the sequel "evan almighty", both of which were basically just apologizing for God with "he has a huge workload, even with his omnipotence", We had shows like "touched by an angel" and "joan of arcadia" which made a lot of money and ran on a premise that was explicitly pro-Christian, not to mention the "indiana jones" series, which was both very pro-Christian (featuring artifacts like the holy grail and the ark of the covenant), those were obvously legendary.

Even the shitty Disney shows in the 90's had pro-Christian episodes to them, they even released "the prince of Egypt", which was the Moses-in-Egypt story.

There's no way Devon doesn't know all this, before it was merely misleading, now it outright lies.

Were there anti-Christian shows and movies in the 90's? sure there were, "dogma" comes to mind, but most shows were very much either neutral or positive on the subject of Christianity, the negative position shows were outliers, not the norm, I remember because I was both a Christian and an atheist in the 90's and 2000's, I remember being concerned with the presence of anti-Christian stuff in the media (where it showed up on occasion), and concerned with the lack of it in the media as well, because there wasn't very much overtly anti-Christian stuff in the media at the time, so either i got fixated on what few of it existed, or fixated on how few of it there was compared to the opposite (pro-Christian messaging).

Devon isn't someone who is unfamiliar with the media of this time, so he's just lying his ass off here.

Lastly, the episode where God is shown is showing him each time while Homer is asleep, this is Homer's vision of God, and of course he's going to agree with homer on everything, Homer still changes his mind about religion at the end of the episode, which has a message that church is important and should be attended.

This counter-analysis is too long already, so I'll leave on one point:

That the show as a whole shows religion, particularly Christianity, as being a good thing, it has shown bad qualities about the Christian religion, like how Christian preachers do need do pull stunts to get the church funded and put asses in pews, but on the whole the message is that religion in general, and Christianity in particular, are good and valuable things for people to have in their lives. In the end the diagnosis is that it is good.

For example, Homer stops going to church, while some parts of this show him as making points about how "God is everywhere", and that "he should be able to worship God in his own way", this is shown as him being lazy and entitled.

At the end of the episode, he realizes that religion is important, his life is saved from a burning building by people of various religions, including Krusty (a religious jew) and Apu (a practicing hindu),also Flander's house gets set on fire, but god immediately puts it out, and Flanders is supposed to be the morally straight ultra-Christian stereotype, homer then goes back to attending church after this.

Matt Groening is himself a Christian, he's a liberal democrat, but a Christian one, at least that was last time I saw him talk about his religious values in an interview, which admittedly was a while ago, but those were the days when he was making episodes like these.

Since then his spokesperson in the series, Lisa, converted to Buddhism, so I'm guessing he was following the trend of Eastern religion among liberal celebrities back then.

It's shown that Christianity has saved lives, it's gotten people through tough times, helped people in need, given people a sense of purpose and moral guidance, given people answers to tough questions, and it's created a community that has been of great benefit for those who belong to it.

The Simpsons position on Christianity is like it's position on liberalism, it can at times show the worse parts of it, but for the most part, it treats the ideas associated with the political ideology far more positively than any alternatives, of which the show features just one, republican conservatism, which is depicted as being a wholly evil ideology of millionaires sitting around a table talking about how best to fleece the poor.