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811

I’ve wrestled with this for a while, just want to see what you guys think.

We’re commanded to forgive as God has forgiven. Ok, fair enough. Seems a simple concept at face value.

But when you really dig in, what does that mean?

Most Christians say that forgiveness is something you do, regardless of whether the offending party confesses, apologizes, or repents.

But then look at how God operates. He requires confession and repentance for forgiveness. Neither is optional.

So then, God holds us to a higher standard than even himself in this regard?

That doesn’t seem logical or reasonable to me. But hey, perhaps I’m wrong. I’m just thinking nakedly here.

I’ve also heard a pastor say that forgiving someone - regardless of a confession or apology - allows God to take up your case. The analogy being that in a court of law, it’s better to let the judge take up the case than to take it up yourself. Ok, I can see the logic in that, too.

But I’m still flummoxed by the idea that we are held to a higher standard than God holds for himself. Again, he requires confession and repentance for forgiveness.

I’ve wrestled with this for a while, just want to see what you guys think. We’re commanded to forgive as God has forgiven. Ok, fair enough. Seems a simple concept at face value. But when you really dig in, what does that mean? Most Christians say that forgiveness is something you do, regardless of whether the offending party confesses, apologizes, or repents. But then look at how God operates. He *requires* confession and repentance for forgiveness. Neither is optional. So then, God holds us to a higher standard than even himself in this regard? That doesn’t seem logical or reasonable to me. But hey, perhaps I’m wrong. I’m just thinking nakedly here. I’ve also heard a pastor say that forgiving someone - regardless of a confession or apology - allows God to take up your case. The analogy being that in a court of law, it’s better to let the judge take up the case than to take it up yourself. Ok, I can see the logic in that, too. But I’m still flummoxed by the idea that we are held to a higher standard than God holds for himself. Again, he *requires* confession and repentance for forgiveness.

(post is archived)

[–] • 3 pts

I struggle so much with " Bless those that persecute you " , can't quite pull that off.

I want those trying to ethnically cleanse my people to face firing squads.

Not sure what to do with that

[–] • 2 pts (edited )

Well, a thirst for justice is not wrong, per se. He’s also a God of justice, afterall.

But there is a fine line between justice and revenge.

Also, it’s good to pray for your persecutors. Pray that their eyes are opened. I try to remember the apostle Paul’s past and realize that even a guy like that can have his eyes opened. And look at the result? All those New Testament books, teaching in spiritual warfare, etc. All a result of an evil man turned good.

[–] • 0 pt

The prayer of a righteous man availeth much. It's a spiritual battle , for sure

[–] • 0 pt

"Bless those that persecute you" means to "give peace a chance," as the Beatles put it. But after you have done that, and your enemies are still trying to murder you, it's time to take up the righteous sword. In the book Revelation the returned Christ is carrying a sword. He's not going to use it to make people into knights. There comes a time, even for the most devout Christian, when violence is necessary. Deus vult!

[–] • 1 pt

Didn't God forgive your sins on the cross?

[–] • 1 pt

Yes, and here’s the kicker: I received forgiveness because I confessed and repented

God doesn’t give it otherwise.

Did you even read my post before commenting?

[–] • 1 pt (edited )

God forgave your sins on the cross, you made the choice to receive forgiveness by confessing.

God doesn't ask you to forgive criminals for no reason, or to hold humans to a higher standard. You forgive just as God forgives. To RECEIVE the forgiveness you must confess and repent. That's what the criminal who sins against you must do to receive your forgiveness.

Capiche? Sabes? Comprende?

[–] • 1 pt

Now… that is what I was looking for. That very well may be the missing piece here. Thank you.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

confessed

If you confess that JESUS IS LORD and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[–] • 0 pt (edited )

That's part of it. You must also confess your sins and repent of them. Repent doesn't mean saying "I'm sorry", either. The word actually means to turn in the opposite direction.

It clearly says, numerous times, in the bible that God only forgives the sins of those who confess them and repent of them.

Let's say you got saved last week, and then you murder someone this week for whatever reason. God still requires that you confess and repent of that sin. You're being saved is not a license to sin freely.

[–] • 1 pt

Hatred smite and justice are not ours.

If one smites the right cheek give him the left. Let God have his revenge or (karma). Remember your actions are returned 7 fold so be careful with them. God does love all in Rev he says he will make the imposters in the land of God's children that are of the synagogue of Satan bow and know that he loved them too. That's powerful. Remember when Pharisees were going to stone Mary but Jesus says let he with no sin cast the first stone. Be loving brother and fight for enlightenment through humility

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

or karma

No.

God does love all

"Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated."

Weird.

[–] • 0 pt

old testament were in the new testament were god reincarnated himself as jesus and sacrificed himself for are sins.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

old testament

Or Paul quoting (reaffirming, upholding) it in Romans.

god reincarnated himself as jesus

Hell no. You really should try reading the book(s) for yourself.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

But then look at how God operates. He requires confession and repentance for forgiveness. Neither is optional.

So then, God holds us to a higher standard than even himself in this regard?

Your sins were forgiven before you were born, which was also before you had committed a single one.

Now perhaps you will notice that the payment (sacrifice) for your sins was made 2,000 years ago, but now something is "required."

What is required to receive forgiveness from God?

[–] • 0 pt

"What is required to receive forgiveness from God?"

I answered that question in the very quote you responded to: He requires confession and repentance for forgiveness.

[–] • 0 pt

You wouldn't really understand until you accidentally sacrifice your first born son to the sons of Aaron and have to make an entire religion up to explain it to your wife.

[–] • 0 pt

Thanks, but I’m only interested in hearing from Christians on this one.

[–] • 0 pt

Forgive your enemies, but send them to God for judgement.

[–] • 0 pt

I’m happy to read that you have a solid enough grasp on the Bible to dismiss a lot of these ridiculous, often repeated, misunderstood/distortions of God’s character. I think Kaptaan said it best. Forgiveness is available to all who ask, repent, and change their ways. Just as God winks at our time of ignorance (before we made the choice to repent and follow Him) we should understand that the wicked do what they do in ignorance. We clearly don’t have God's patience so it’s something we must strive towards.

[–] • 0 pt

Forgive people and help people and never do it because God told your to.

Do it because it is pleasant and making the World a better place is just a nice thing to do.

God is Real, and he hates all of us.

[–] • 2 pts

God does not hate all of us. Quite the opposite.

And no, it’s not pleasant forgiving someone who never apologized. It’s one of the most unpleasant things ever. So unpleasant, in fact, that not even God himself will do it.

[–] • 0 pt

Explain to me how God loves us.

Or don't, because I've got an extremely unpleasant answer you might not want to hear.

[–] • 1 pt

God loves us as he loves himself, because we are all a part of him. That does not mean that God is going to always do exactly what you, puny human, may think you want him to do.

[–] • 0 pt (edited )

Explain to me how God loves us.

Gods wanted a family. He wanted a family of those who, like him, have free will. Ie, the capability to choose good or evil.

He could have very well made us as biological robots instead. But then how could there be true love between a robot and it’s creator? Robots can’t love because they don’t have a choice, and love is a choice.

So you can only have love if free will is a component. But the downside to that is that with free will, bad choices can be made..resulting in suffering.

It’s not that “God allows suffering”. God has no right to intervene in earthly affairs unless and until someone with a belly button gives him permission and asks. You know why? Because of what he said in the beginning: “I give YOU (man) dominion over the earth, animals, etc. etc.”

Since God cannot lie, he will not go back on the word that was spoken. The word even says that “he holds his word above his own name” to emphasize this characteristic. A being so powerful that his words create and destroy must be careful in what he says. His words cannot contradict, nor can his actions otherwise. He is bound by his words because of this fact.

So, that’s why there is suffering in the world. Because the first two humans fucked it all up and turned their authority over to an unemployed cherub in the garden.

The proof that god loves you? Despite what humans have done, he still desires relationship with us.. so in order to redeem us, he sacrificed himself on our behalf.

You’re just mad about life and taking it out on him. I don’t say that judgmentally, I’ve been there myself. I was there for a long time, actually. But that isn’t going to help your situation, brother. You need to direct your anger in the appropriate place: against the unemployed cherub in the garden.

There’s a war going on since before either of us were born. It’s binary, there are two sides. Choose one. You can fight against the asshole who has made everyone’s lives tough to varying degrees, and side with the one who is going to win. Or not. It’s kind of that simple, despite the complexity of everything.

[–] • -1 pt

Your confusion stems from the fact that the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament. In the Old Testament, God is wrathful and vengeful and jealous. He says so himself. He is not a God of Christian charity. He doesn't forgive his enemies, he destroys them.

The Gnostics, recognizing this fact, wrestled with themselves about how to reconcile the God of the New Testament with the God of the Old, and they came up with the brilliant insight that the two are different beings. The true God, the Highest, the source of all light, is the God of Jesus the Christ. The Hebrew god of the Old Testament, or Torah, was called by the Gnostics Yaldabaoth. He is the demiurge, a distinctly lesser being although still immensely powerful. Whereas the God of Light is perfect, Yaldabaoth is flawed. That is why he can exhibit human failings such as jealousy and wrath.

As a Christian, you must leave the false god of the Old Testament behind you. Do not abandon the Old Testament, since the true God appears in many places in its pages, but reject the false god Yaldabaoth where he appears, because he is not the Christian God of Light.

[–] • 1 pt (edited )

I should have made it clear, but I’m really only interested from those who truly understand God and the Bible.

Not to sound pretentious, but you don’t understand the Bible, fren.

I don’t want to make this into a sermon, but I’ll explain because I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to bash you personally so much as point out a fact.

There is no “God of the Old Testament” and separate “God of the New Testament”. Again, not bashing you for thinking this because many do. I myself wrestled with this concept for a long time until I finally understood that it wasn’t God who changed, but man’s circumstances on the earth that changed.

Most (if not all) human sin is directly inspired or compelled by demonic entities. That especially goes for the most egregious of sins, IE those specifically forbidden in the Ten Commandments. This is a premise, which if you don’t accept it, then the rest doesn’t make sense…

Ok so here’s the thing: deliverance (from demonic entities) wasn’t available prior to Christ’s arrival.

So, when a demonic entity would take hold of a person in the Old Testament, the only way to stop that sin dead in its tracks and keep it at bay..IE, keep it from spreading amongst the tribe, was to kill that person straight out. Because they couldn’t be delivered otherwise..because Christ hadn’t yet come and then sent the Holy Spirit to the earth.. men hadn’t yet been given the authority to drive the entities out. Because that authority couldn’t be given by anyone but Christ, and not until he had arrived to fulfill his mission.

It’s the very reason why in the Old Testament they stoned adulterers, and yet Christ saved the adulterous woman from being stoned. It’s because just his mere presence drove that demon away and also convicted the woman into repentance.

Hopefully that makes sense. There’s more to it all, but that’s the cliff’s notes version. It’s not taught in most churches because most pastors don’t even understand the Bible.

Ok so back to the actual issue at hand here…

My confusion on the issue of forgiveness has nothing to do with and Old Testament god vs a New Testament god. It has to do with the idea that the word says “forgive those who wrong you as God forgives you.”

“As God forgives you” being the key phrase..which begs the question “well then, how does god forgive you”?

According to the Bible, God will forgive those who accept Christ, confess their sins, and repent. Those three things are required and not optional.

However, most accepted Christian theology touts that we should forgive regardless of a confession or apology from the offender in question, which is not what even God himself does since a confession and repentance are required by him. Did I say required? Yes, required. As in, not optional.

So then, it seems as if God holds us to an even higher standard than himself.

So either he does (which I find hard to believe), I’m missing something as it relates to forgiveness and need to learn it, or we aren’t actually required to forgive an unaccountable, unrepentant offender.

My problem here is I’m not sure which of the three is the truth.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

One thing worth noting is that you are using one English word to cover two different Greek words:

"Forgive us our debts" (Lord's prayer, Strong's Greek word 863) is more related to "leaving" (e.g. Matthew 4:20 they "forgave" their fishing nets and followed Jesus).

"Forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you" (Ephesians 4:32, Strong's Greek word 5483) is more akin to giving/granting (e.g. Luke 7:21 he "forgave" [granted] sight unto many that were blind)

Surely this won't resolve all of the confusion, but you have conflated two similar concepts.

[–] • 0 pt

Thanks for the information. It would seem that the word could be used interchangeably within context: one meaning to repent (the "leave/leaving" version of the word) and one meaning what we're more familiar with (the version meaning to give/grant), which sounds more like "forgiveness" as we would usually understand it.

While that's interesting and good to know, you're right.. it's beside the point and doesn't really answer the question I'm asking.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament

Get lost.

Oh wait, you already are. What a preposterous claim you make! The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.