Everyone has a choice. There is no fate. There are only the fateful patterns you create for yourself. Evil deeds beget a tormented existence.
I’ve yet to see a compelling argument from the original languages where the descriptor for the fate of the unbeliever is eternal. I only see the descriptor applied to the torment tool itself being so, which makes sense as it was designed for eternal beings - fallen angels and the like. Also, plenty of scriptures about impurities being “burned away.”
So, it’s my view that the fires are eternal, and the suffering is eternal for the eternal beings, but eventually the torment of the unbelievers ends as they are burned away.
from the original languages
So... G166 = "aionios," is translated eternal or everlasting.
G2851 ("kolasis") is only used twice:
- Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment ..."
- 1 John 4:18 "Fear involves punishment"
The worm never dying implies there is always food; the fire never going out implies there is always fuel. Both of these are explained by the thought that this is not meant for every lost soul, only maybe three mentioned in revelation?
Well, 1/3 of the angelic beings (the fallen) will be there, according to the account of the fall, itself, and they are “eternal” beings.
Also, God’s flame of righteousness requires no fuel, as evidenced by the burning bush not being singed or consumed by the fire.
To digress, it reminds me of the weird debate from Return of the Jedi when the heroes were told they’d be cast into the Sarlacc and slowly digested over 1000 years. Some people took that to mean the Sarlacc had the ability to keep its prey alive for 1000 years as it performed the digestive process.
In any event, as I said, I’ve spoken to a few Greek scholars on the subject and I’ve never had a satisfactory answer. This included not just the words used but the grammar around the words. So, for now, until I am satisfied otherwise, I’m sticking to my present position.
It can be a deep rabbit hole! After researching it for 50 or so hours, I came across a video where James White says that it's one of the most difficult doctrines, because of how intertwined it is with other aspects of the faith (e.g. the atonement).
All that research didn't do much to change me from my position either, but at least I have a better sense of what the arguments are and the scriptures that support them.
Be blessed!
I believe it's #1. I wish it was #2 but the torment appears to be forever.
Not sure about afterlife, but this life is where the important things happen. One of my issues with Christianity is the focus on the afterlife undermines that very important concept.
A misunderstanding of Christianity is that exact idea.
Christianity is entirely focused on the actions and choices of today having eternal impact. Quite the opposite of only focusing on eternity, it’s the temporary and the eternal both that must be in focus for the believer, as the call is to “run the race to win.”
Yes, but the things that need to be done in this life, surprise surprise, are not about strength and advancement for its followers. The glory and reward is conveniently hidden away in the afterlife, as a reward for passivity and not being too aggressive.
It has not served us well.
I find it amusing that the two primary narratives the jews push against Christianity are about its “excessive aggressiveness” when described by the “liberal jews” and its “excessive passivity” when described by the “conservative jews.” Somehow it’s both simultaneously.
My wife and I were talking about our chickens laying an egg and how in pain the chicken sounded. I told her that must be the fate of non-believers. Sentenced to give birth everyday for 3 years until someone puts you out of your misery or a predator eats you. All while having to eat bugs and cluck.
Scripture warns of the separation of the wheat from the chaff.
Right... so you DON'T believe #3. I guess we will use the process of elimination?
Eliminate #4. Look up the Natsarim. The origin of the word Christian has pagan roots. I'm not embracing that word.
Ok I looked it up and my BS detector was going crazy!
Granted, I didn't find any other origin of the word besides G5546 = xristianos, "Christian" in Acts 11:26 and 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16.
I call my savior JESUS because that is the English transliteration/tradition. We could call him Joshua or Yeshua but it comes from the GREEK iesous.
Remember that time before you were born. It's like that.
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