Great information here. New things are more expensive than old things.
Great information here. New things are more expensive than old things.
Some people can't do math (maybe it's too racist). Anyone can go buy an electric car today for $28,000 before any tax break (thedrive.com). Over the life of the car, electric cars are far cheaper than their gasoline counterparts even without any subsidy of any kind. Keep in mind that if you're paying $0.12/kWh for electricity, an electric car will cost between 2 and 3 cents per mile to drive depending on your driving style. Over a 150,000 mile lifetime you will have spent $4,500 on 'fuel' versus $16,000 in fuel for a 30 mpg sedan, or $30,000+ for an SUV or truck. You also will not have any oil changes or engine air filters to replace. You will probably still have your original brakes, too.
It's not uncommon that the fuel savings alone is enough to pay for the car entirely. A dude at work drove his Suburban 50 miles to work every day and was spending $~500 a month on gas. He bought a Chevy Bolt and spent $60 a month for the electricity. The other $400 paid the payments on the Bolt, and he still had the Suburban for trips and weekends.
Some people can't do math (maybe it's too racist). [Anyone can go buy an electric car today for $28,000 *before* any tax break](https://www.thedrive.com/news/41873/you-can-lease-a-2022-nissan-leaf-for-89-a-month). Over the life of the car, electric cars are far cheaper than their gasoline counterparts even without any subsidy of any kind. Keep in mind that if you're paying $0.12/kWh for electricity, an electric car will cost between 2 and 3 cents per mile to drive depending on your driving style. Over a 150,000 mile lifetime you will have spent $4,500 on 'fuel' versus $16,000 in fuel for a 30 mpg sedan, or $30,000+ for an SUV or truck. You also will not have any oil changes or engine air filters to replace. You will probably still have your original brakes, too.
It's not uncommon that the fuel savings alone is enough to pay for the car entirely. A dude at work drove his Suburban 50 miles to work every day and was spending $~500 a month on gas. He bought a Chevy Bolt and spent $60 a month for the electricity. The other $400 paid the payments on the Bolt, and he still had the Suburban for trips and weekends.
Yes, however:
Buying a Leaf S outright would cost $28,350 before local or federal tax incentives,
Incentives (aka, rebates) will end for electric vehicles at some point, when all monies are claimed. As prices are artificially skewed in favor of electrics, price can't really be used as a comparison. Compare using MSRP. You can go and buy an 2022 Impreza for about $18900 right now, and you're probably going to get 200-300k out of the car with a little bit of care.
the base trim, S, whose 40-kilowatt-hour battery can propel it 149 miles
That kind of car is targeted towards a city driver. A car like that is totally useless in a rural area where you may not even have a way to charge except by plugging in to a home electrical system sans special charger. And if your charging cable breaks, you're out of luck until you buy another one. When I lived in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't uncommon to put 150 miles on a car in a day, especially if you had to drive anywhere other than the local stop-n-rob in the town 20 miles away.
the automaker estimates the battery will last at least 10. (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-many-miles-will-a-2021-nissan-leaf-last/)
Modern cars, with a little bit of care, can last 15 or more years. To keep your electric for that same amount of time, you're going to be spending quite a bit of money:
The 30 kWh pack prices range from $3,500 to $4,500, while 40 kWh packs vary from $6,500 to $7,500. That’s the highest price difference in these replacements. Getting a 62 kWh battery pack demands $8,500 up to $9,500. (https://bellinghamautoacservice.com/faq/how-much-does-a-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-to-replace/)
Assuming you keep this car for as long as I've kept my gasoline cars (the longest was 17 years old) then you're probably going to be replacing the battery pack at least once, maybe twice depending on how often you deplete it. That eats any advantage you have right there, and there's no guarantees you're even going to be able to get said pack in 10 years, or replace it without substantial retrofit. If you're the kind of person that can't bear to keep a car more than 3 years, then you're already losing money left and right.
Electrics are great for a particular type of person, the kind that doesn't keep a car (and doesn't mind spending bucks to lease forever,) doesn't drive much, and doesn't want to think about maintenance. For the rest of us, that simply doesn't work.
Yes, however:
> Buying a Leaf S outright would cost $28,350 before local or federal tax incentives,
Incentives (aka, rebates) will end for electric vehicles at some point, when all monies are claimed. As prices are artificially skewed in favor of electrics, price can't really be used as a comparison. Compare using MSRP. You can go and buy an 2022 Impreza for about $18900 right now, and you're probably going to get 200-300k out of the car with a little bit of care.
> the base trim, S, whose 40-kilowatt-hour battery can propel it 149 miles
That kind of car is targeted towards a city driver. A car like that is totally useless in a rural area where you may not even have a way to charge except by plugging in to a home electrical system sans special charger. And if your charging cable breaks, you're out of luck until you buy another one. When I lived in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't uncommon to put 150 miles on a car in a day, especially if you had to drive anywhere other than the local stop-n-rob in the town 20 miles away.
> the automaker estimates the battery will last at least 10. (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-many-miles-will-a-2021-nissan-leaf-last/)
Modern cars, with a little bit of care, can last 15 or more years. To keep your electric for that same amount of time, you're going to be spending quite a bit of money:
> The 30 kWh pack prices range from $3,500 to $4,500, while 40 kWh packs vary from $6,500 to $7,500. That’s the highest price difference in these replacements. Getting a 62 kWh battery pack demands $8,500 up to $9,500. (https://bellinghamautoacservice.com/faq/how-much-does-a-nissan-leaf-battery-cost-to-replace/)
Assuming you keep this car for as long as I've kept my gasoline cars (the longest was 17 years old) then you're probably going to be replacing the battery pack at least once, maybe twice depending on how often you deplete it. That eats any advantage you have right there, and there's no guarantees you're even going to be able to get said pack in 10 years, or replace it without substantial retrofit. If you're the kind of person that can't bear to keep a car more than 3 years, then you're already losing money left and right.
Electrics are great for a particular type of person, the kind that doesn't keep a car (and doesn't mind spending bucks to lease forever,) doesn't drive much, and doesn't want to think about maintenance. For the rest of us, that simply doesn't work.
Incentives (aka, rebates) will end for electric vehicles at some point, when all monies are claimed. As prices are artificially skewed in favor of electrics, price can't really be used as a comparison. Compare using MSRP.
That is MSRP. After incentives it's under $20,000.
Modern cars, with a little bit of care, can last 15 or more years. To keep your electric for that same amount of time, you're going to be spending quite a bit of mone
I have one that's 12 years old with 157,000 miles on it. No trouble yet.
Assuming you keep this car for as long as I've kept my gasoline cars (the longest was 17 years old) then you're probably going to be replacing the battery pack at least once, maybe twice depending on how often you deplete it.
The battery warranties are 150,000 miles or 10 years.
> Incentives (aka, rebates) will end for electric vehicles at some point, when all monies are claimed. As prices are artificially skewed in favor of electrics, price can't really be used as a comparison. Compare using MSRP.
That **is** MSRP. After incentives it's under $20,000.
> Modern cars, with a little bit of care, can last 15 or more years. To keep your electric for that same amount of time, you're going to be spending quite a bit of mone
I have one that's 12 years old with 157,000 miles on it. No trouble yet.
> Assuming you keep this car for as long as I've kept my gasoline cars (the longest was 17 years old) then you're probably going to be replacing the battery pack at least once, maybe twice depending on how often you deplete it.
The battery warranties are 150,000 miles or 10 years.
That is MSRP. After incentives it's under $20,000.
Yes, I said incentives are just that. Artificial skewing of price. There's no guarantee that will be here tomorrow. Compare MSRP to MSRP, not MSRP to fake price.
I have one that's 12 years old with 157,000 miles on it. No trouble yet.
And my current gasoline vehicle if 14 with 220,000 on it. No trouble yet. (it does get all of it's scheduled maintenance, I hate sloppy suspension.) I've known plenty of these vehicles that went for 300k or more, and the only reason that they stopped driving them was because the mechanical structure of the vehicle simply wore out. I have a list of people that want mine because it's a manual transmission, so I'm not worried about what to do with it when it does decide to go.
My last one was 20 when it shit the bed, the only reason I got rid of it was someone hit it and destroyed the B-pillar area.
The battery warranties are 150,000 miles or 10 years.
Which is why I stated that modern (gasoline) cars can last 15 or more years. I see plenty on the road that are 20, and a decent amount still from the 90s. At some point, if you want to keep your electric on the road for that long, you're going to be spending several thousand on a battery pack. Yours has degraded, and is on borrowed time at 157k. Cells like to just quit without warning, it's how batteries work.
The point here is that electrics are a crap deal for many drivers, and both the cost without incentives and the range is going to have to change dramatically before they can become a viable alternative for anything other than a short commuter verhicle.
> That is MSRP. After incentives it's under $20,000.
Yes, I said incentives are just that. Artificial skewing of price. There's no guarantee that will be here tomorrow. Compare MSRP to MSRP, not MSRP to fake price.
> I have one that's 12 years old with 157,000 miles on it. No trouble yet.
And my current gasoline vehicle if 14 with 220,000 on it. No trouble yet. (it does get all of it's scheduled maintenance, I hate sloppy suspension.) I've known plenty of these vehicles that went for 300k or more, and the only reason that they stopped driving them was because the mechanical structure of the vehicle simply wore out. I have a list of people that want mine because it's a manual transmission, so I'm not worried about what to do with it when it does decide to go.
My last one was 20 when it shit the bed, the only reason I got rid of it was someone hit it and destroyed the B-pillar area.
> The battery warranties are 150,000 miles or 10 years.
Which is why I stated that modern (gasoline) cars can last 15 or more years. I see plenty on the road that are 20, and a decent amount still from the 90s. At some point, if you want to keep your electric on the road for that long, you're going to be spending several thousand on a battery pack. Yours has degraded, and is on borrowed time at 157k. Cells like to just quit without warning, it's how batteries work.
The point here is that electrics are a crap deal for many drivers, and both the cost without incentives and the range is going to have to change dramatically before they can become a viable alternative for anything other than a short commuter verhicle.
First you are comparing a truck with a car.
Also you never mention why gasoline is expensive, gasoline is expensive due to the government wanting us to go EV everywhere. Gasoline should be less than $2/ga for premium.
I understand why you are proposing EVs, but you don't see you are reducing your quality of life because of their narrative. Instead of being able to enjoy a sports car, now one has to drive a boring EV or compact size car.
Your only reasons are financial. There will be a time when EVs will be expensive to drive. They will tax your panels like they tax property tax. Electricity prices will skyrocket. They aren't going to make your life easier to live. EVs aren't the savior many think it will be, it will be the opposite.
First you are comparing a truck with a car.
Also you never mention why gasoline is expensive, gasoline is expensive due to the government wanting us to go EV everywhere. Gasoline should be less than $2/ga for premium.
I understand why you are proposing EVs, but you don't see you are reducing your quality of life because of their narrative. Instead of being able to enjoy a sports car, now one has to drive a boring EV or compact size car.
Your only reasons are financial. There will be a time when EVs will be expensive to drive. They will tax your panels like they tax property tax. Electricity prices will skyrocket. They aren't going to make your life easier to live. EVs aren't the savior many think it will be, it will be the opposite.
First you are comparing a truck with a car.
Even comparing an 2.0L Accord that gets 26 mpg saves you about $280 a month for fuel alone. Doesn't quite pay for the car, but pays for about $15,000 of it.
Instead of being able to enjoy a sports car, now one has to drive a boring EV or compact size car.
You mean 0-60 in 2 seconds is boring EV (motortrend.com)?
Your only reasons are financial. There will be a time when EVs will be expensive to drive. They will tax your panels like they tax property tax. Electricity prices will skyrocket.
I can easily hide solar panels. Try hiding a refinery.
They aren't going to make your life easier to live. EVs aren't the savior many think it will be, it will be the opposite.
There is literally nothing "they" can do to EVs that they can't do to gas vehicles. In fact, it's easier to restrict your freedom with gas vehicles by taxing gas or sabotaging a pipeline or refinery.
> First you are comparing a truck with a car.
Even comparing an 2.0L Accord that gets 26 mpg saves you about $280 a month for fuel alone. Doesn't quite pay for the car, but pays for about $15,000 of it.
> Instead of being able to enjoy a sports car, now one has to drive a boring EV or compact size car.
[You mean 0-60 in 2 seconds is boring EV](https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-s-plaid-acceleration-0-60-mph-video/)?
> Your only reasons are financial. There will be a time when EVs will be expensive to drive. They will tax your panels like they tax property tax. Electricity prices will skyrocket.
I can easily hide solar panels. Try hiding a refinery.
> They aren't going to make your life easier to live. EVs aren't the savior many think it will be, it will be the opposite.
There is literally nothing "they" can do to EVs that they can't do to gas vehicles. In fact, it's easier to restrict your freedom with gas vehicles by taxing gas or sabotaging a pipeline or refinery.
You remind me of the people who love tiny houses or the nomad types that build a van to live in. The make it sound like it's cute and efficient living, yet they don't want to admit they are downsizing their lives.
It's amazing that you don't agree in the slightest with anyone when it comes to your precious EV criticism. Also it's strange that you haven't questioned why they are trying to shove us into EVs.
Doesn't quite pay for the car, but pays for about $15,000 of it.
Again, you simply want to live cheap. They will not make it cheap once they start taxing by the mile.
You mean 0-60 in 2 seconds is boring EV?
Have you never driven a car with a powerful engine? 99% of the fun is the sound and feel of the engine and going to the red limiter.
I can easily hide solar panels. Try hiding a refinery.
No you aren't, there's a thing called aerial view and it is continuously taking pictures of your property.
There is literally nothing "they" can do to EVs that they can't do to gas vehicles. In fact, it's easier to restrict your freedom with gas vehicles by taxing gas or sabotaging a pipeline or refinery.
If the grid is down, where are you going to go, nowhere. Because there will be little to travel to, and you are restricted to your radius from your house and/or panels. Also there is talk in taxing people by the mile.
You remind me of the people who love tiny houses or the nomad types that build a van to live in. The make it sound like it's cute and efficient living, yet they don't want to admit they are downsizing their lives.
It's amazing that you don't agree in the slightest with anyone when it comes to your precious EV criticism. Also it's strange that you haven't questioned why they are trying to shove us into EVs.
> Doesn't quite pay for the car, but pays for about $15,000 of it.
Again, you simply want to live cheap. They will not make it cheap once they start taxing by the mile.
> You mean 0-60 in 2 seconds is boring EV?
Have you never driven a car with a powerful engine? 99% of the fun is the sound and feel of the engine and going to the red limiter.
> I can easily hide solar panels. Try hiding a refinery.
No you aren't, there's a thing called aerial view and it is continuously taking pictures of your property.
> There is literally nothing "they" can do to EVs that they can't do to gas vehicles. In fact, it's easier to restrict your freedom with gas vehicles by taxing gas or sabotaging a pipeline or refinery.
If the grid is down, where are you going to go, nowhere. Because there will be little to travel to, and you are restricted to your radius from your house and/or panels. Also there is talk in taxing people by the mile.
People just seem to forget we have a free market. Rising demand for electricity is not a bad thing, a successful civilization will have increasing energy demands.
Rising demand will be met with new production.
People just seem to forget we have a free market. Rising demand for electricity is not a bad thing, a successful civilization will have increasing energy demands.
Rising demand will be met with new production.
Energy demand with a sharp increase (such as that which suddenly replacing gasoline cars with electric cars will require) is going to lead available capacity by a considerable distance. Renewable technologies aren't going to be good candidates for supplying this demand because they have limited time availability, and require a considerable footprint (with considerable end-of-life waste) to provide the same output as one multi-turbine nuclear plant.
Bulk power generation that is available 24/7 without storage is needed for this type of consumption. As bulk generation goes offline, it becomes difficult to meet normal consumption, let alone the high demand curves required by charging electric vehicles.Here in the states, some places are finding it difficult to meet normal demand and require rolling blackouts.
Energy demand with a sharp increase (such as that which suddenly replacing gasoline cars with electric cars will require) is going to lead available capacity by a considerable distance. Renewable technologies aren't going to be good candidates for supplying this demand because they have limited time availability, and require a considerable footprint (with considerable end-of-life waste) to provide the same output as one multi-turbine nuclear plant.
Bulk power generation that is available 24/7 without storage is needed for this type of consumption. As bulk generation goes offline, it becomes difficult to meet normal consumption, let alone the high demand curves required by charging electric vehicles.Here in the states, some places are finding it difficult to meet normal demand and require rolling blackouts.
Energy demand with a sharp increase (such as that which suddenly replacing gasoline cars with electric cars will require)
Luckily we can't "suddenly" replace the gasoline cars with electric ones, either. These things take time. As long as utilities don't sit on their asses it will be fine.
> Energy demand with a sharp increase (such as that which suddenly replacing gasoline cars with electric cars will require)
Luckily we can't "suddenly" replace the gasoline cars with electric ones, either. These things take time. As long as utilities don't sit on their asses it will be fine.
Utilities want to replace all of their power plants with "green" energy.
Wind and solar take a lot of space comparatively for the amount of power the generate.
Utilities want to replace all of their power plants with "green" energy.
Wind and solar take a lot of space comparatively for the amount of power the generate.
As long as utilities don't sit on their asses it will be fine.
What, like in California?
>As long as utilities don't sit on their asses it will be fine.
What, like in California?
All fun engineering problems for us to solve IMO.
All fun engineering problems for us to solve IMO.
We already solved them. Nuclear power. But that's a NIMBY's bad dream.
We already solved them. Nuclear power. But that's a NIMBY's bad dream.
(post is archived)