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Feel like I'm tilting at windmills on this topic. Seems too complex for the average vegan to comprehend. I need guidance on how to make it catchy and get people rethink veganism = murder.

Here's the deal:

  • I hate killing animals, therefore I'm a carnivore.

How does that compute? Let me explain: You have 3 options:

  1. Kill yourself.
  2. Eat meat.
  3. Eat plants.

Let's assume killing oneself is a non starter, therefore, we must either consume meat or consume plants.

For me, the choice is simple: my family slaughters 1 beef steer per year. This is the bulk of the meat we eat, beyond some pork and chicken.

The life of my steer:

  1. Born on Texas ranch land.
  2. Lives with it's mother and larger herd for ~20 months.
  3. Lives on the native grass and on pond water which fills after rainfall.
  4. We take the steer ~25 miles to a local slaughter+butcher humanely kills it and processes it down for us.
  5. We put the meat in the freezer and enjoy it for the balance of the year***.

1 death = feeds my family of 5 ~20% of their caloric needs for the year. The only external energy required is in the 25 mile travel and the freezer to hold the beef. (The above is not fictional, this is exactly what my family does.)

OK, let's explore the alternative: Let's assume I was a vegan and didn't eat the steer, but wished to gain the same caloric intake from the same amount of grazed land.

Well, I can't eat the native grasses, like the steer can*. So, I've got to cultivate the land. Wheat, Soy, Corn, Barley, etc. It's going to probably be one of those.

The steps required:

  1. First step is to till the land. This involves the most death - the tills will kill 100's of rodents, skunks, nesting birds, etc. Plus untold millions of earth worms, spiders, grubs, and other creatures that live in the top soil.**
  2. Plant the field, consuming many gallons of diesel.
  3. Put down fertilizers and pesticides, killing off the fish and crustaceans in the neighboring creeks.
  4. Pump water from the aquifer to water the crops. Native grasses grow fine, but these human edible crops require extra water.
  5. Harvest, again killing rodents, birds, and other creatures.
  6. We cook the grains and eat it.

100's of mammal deaths + 100's of crustacean/fish deaths + millions of insect deaths = feeds my family of 5 some % of their caloric needs for the year.

Bottom line: if vegan's really cared about animals (and weren't absolute idiots), they would either kill themselves or eat a hamburger but skip the bun. Because, there is more death in the bun than there is in the meat.

Key lies that vegans tell each other:

*Lie #1 - Not all calories are equal. The greens and vegans say that it is inefficient to eat meat because for every calorie of beef, the steer had to consume 10+ calories of grass. This is a lie, because it assumes humans can digest the same native grasses that a steer can consume.

**Lie #2 - You can't cultivate the land without causing death. You can't exist as a human without causing death. If you don't like that, kill yourself.

***Lie #3 - The greens and vegans will tell you the horrors of the feed lot. How steers are pumped full of corn (or other grain) to fatten them up. This is only economically viable if corn is subsidize and is artificially cheap. Our yearly steer is 'grass fed', no feed lots for us. Our yields are 5-10% lower vs. a steer fat on corn, but we don't care.

OK, so ... how do I make the above more concise? How do I poke at the veganism lies? How do I talk about the 3 big lies in veganism without losing everyone's attention?

Feel like I'm tilting at windmills on this topic. Seems too complex for the average vegan to comprehend. I need guidance on how to make it catchy and get people rethink veganism = murder. Here's the deal: - I hate killing animals, therefore I'm a carnivore. How does that compute? Let me explain: You have 3 options: 1. Kill yourself. 2. Eat meat. 3. Eat plants. Let's assume killing oneself is a non starter, therefore, we must either consume meat or consume plants. For me, the choice is simple: my family slaughters 1 beef steer per year. This is the bulk of the meat we eat, beyond some pork and chicken. The life of my steer: 1. Born on Texas ranch land. 2. Lives with it's mother and larger herd for ~20 months. 3. Lives on the native grass and on pond water which fills after rainfall. 4. We take the steer ~25 miles to a local slaughter+butcher humanely kills it and processes it down for us. 5. We put the meat in the freezer and enjoy it for the balance of the year***. 1 death = feeds my family of 5 ~20% of their caloric needs for the year. The only external energy required is in the 25 mile travel and the freezer to hold the beef. (The above is not fictional, this is exactly what my family does.) OK, let's explore the alternative: Let's assume I was a vegan and didn't eat the steer, but wished to gain the same caloric intake from the same amount of grazed land. Well, I can't eat the native grasses, like the steer can*. So, I've got to cultivate the land. Wheat, Soy, Corn, Barley, etc. It's going to probably be one of those. The steps required: 1. First step is to till the land. This involves the most death - the tills will kill 100's of rodents, skunks, nesting birds, etc. Plus untold millions of earth worms, spiders, grubs, and other creatures that live in the top soil.** 2. Plant the field, consuming many gallons of diesel. 3. Put down fertilizers and pesticides, killing off the fish and crustaceans in the neighboring creeks. 4. Pump water from the aquifer to water the crops. Native grasses grow fine, but these human edible crops require extra water. 5. Harvest, again killing rodents, birds, and other creatures. 6. We cook the grains and eat it. 100's of mammal deaths + 100's of crustacean/fish deaths + millions of insect deaths = feeds my family of 5 some % of their caloric needs for the year. Bottom line: if vegan's really cared about animals (and weren't absolute idiots), they would either kill themselves or eat a hamburger but skip the bun. Because, there is more death in the bun than there is in the meat. Key lies that vegans tell each other: *Lie #1 - Not all calories are equal. The greens and vegans say that it is inefficient to eat meat because for every calorie of beef, the steer had to consume 10+ calories of grass. This is a lie, because it assumes humans can digest the same native grasses that a steer can consume. **Lie #2 - You can't cultivate the land without causing death. You can't exist as a human without causing death. If you don't like that, kill yourself. ***Lie #3 - The greens and vegans will tell you the horrors of the feed lot. How steers are pumped full of corn (or other grain) to fatten them up. This is only economically viable if corn is subsidize and is artificially cheap. Our yearly steer is 'grass fed', no feed lots for us. Our yields are 5-10% lower vs. a steer fat on corn, but we don't care. OK, so ... how do I make the above more concise? How do I poke at the veganism lies? How do I talk about the 3 big lies in veganism without losing everyone's attention?

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[–] • 2 pts (edited )

Not that your logic is wrong or anything.. it's just.. long. I'm not hating, I think MOST OF US on the platform think through things to this degree and beyond.. it's why we're here ;)

Most people, for whatever reason(s), are unable or unwilling to think through any issue so thoroughly as the average anon.. chances are, you'd lose them after the first paragraph.

So things have to be simplified for normies. This is how I would start probably.

There is sufficient scientific evidence to suggest that humans are omnivores. We are designed to eat both plants and animals. We're supposed to eat both. The two most obvious pieces of evidence are:

1) Our teeth are designed specifically to be able to tear flesh and grind plant fibers. If we're not omnivores, someone should let out teeth know because they seem to think we are.

2) Michael Savage (the radio host) used to get into this quite forcefully on his show, but he'd get on a tangent about how your body NEEDS animal proteins. There are certain amino acids and such that you CAN'T get from plants, only from animal protein. That's not a matter of opinion or selective morality, it's SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Beyond that, I believe that it's fairly obvious that every human has his/her own unique nutritional needs..there have been books written about this as it relates to blood-type, for example. The idea being that people with certain blood-types are more likely to crave certain types of foods than some other people.. So, for all we know, certain blood-types crave vegetables more than meat and vice versa, because those particular people need more or less of one or the other.

If that's true (and I believe it is), then you can't discriminate against another person simply because their body requires different amounts of things than yours does...yet, this is precisely what the radical vegan types do.

I think there are some people who require more veggies than meat and vice versa. That's fine. Let them eat veggies and let me eat my meat.

[–] • 0 pt

Good points.

And, yes, obviously, I'm not 'anti-plant' (~55% of my calories are plant / grain based. ~30% meat, ~15% dairy.)