Owning the means of production is tyranny?
Both of you sit down and shut the fuck up.
National Socialism is the only way forward.
All they had to do was rename communism and just like that they can recycle all the propaganda.
Capitalism is where a few own the means of production, not the workers.
They exploit YOU to steal the value created.
Wake up.
What value created?
I work for a company, and they pay me my wages because it's the value I supply to them. But without them there would be no company and my labor would have 0 value. THEY created the company. THEY purchased the land. THEY got all the permits. THEY hired the construction company. THEY had the facility built. THEY brought in the equipment. THEY pay the utilities, taxes, and upkeep. THEY handle the admin and financials.
All I do is show up 8 hours a day. Why the fuck should I own the "means of production" when they put in so much work and I did not? I'm not being exploited, without them I would have 0 income.
Wake up? You seem to be the one living in a fucking fairy tale dream world fantasy.
Do you know why the few people who own the means of production at my company own those means? Because they created, funded, planned, and did all the effort to establish those means.
You don't get to demand the entire loaf of bread just because you sat at the table when someone else grew the wheat, harvested it, milled it into flour, mixed it and baked it for you.
That's the loser's definition of capitalism.
You apply for a job at a company that's been around for 50 years, and that has been invested in, developed, and ran by countless people who aren't you. They offer to pay you a set wage to complete a set of tasks, regardless of the overall success/profitability of the company. You show up to do your menial task, which you are barely even qualified to do...and then complain that you're being "exploited".
Lol. Socialists are such dregs and parasites.
So downvoting non-spam is okay on Poal if the user has a "Suspicious Behaviour" tag?
I'd ping the admins to draw this to their attention but they have a bad habit of banning people who ping them.
Congratulations!
You have won a free helicopter ride!
Oh you think socialism means you, the people, own the means of production? That's cute. There were people who thought that before. They mostly starved to death.
Literal definition.
That's fine. If everyone could agree on definitions and practice according to them without deviation, we'd have a dandy world here.
That's what it means, literally. Ask anyone that works at my cooperative what it means, they will tell you the same.
I'm glad your group is finding a way to make it work at the micro level, but at the macro level, it's going to be a plutocracy with a bunch of oligarchs that operate the nationalized monopolies. It might not be the case that you couldn't finance your business' capital goods and eventually own them, but in true communism you will simply be unable to play the game independently. The government will seize capital and represent a behemoth against which you cannot compete.
Your co-op works because it's relatively small and (presumably) full of people of like mind. Unfortunately, governments of size will always be corrupted by the one constant in all governing systems: human nature.
Communism and international socialism often look good on paper. But in practice their governments are corrupt, non-representative, and tyrannical. They get hijacked by an oligarchy who is in it for themselves only. Which leads to suffering for everyone else. Exactly like what's festered in the USSA.
"owning"
Haaaaaaaah.
I think you mean stealing!
Nope. Show me how the government owns the means of production in the US.
It is the few that own it here.
Show me one single solitary instance of communism which did not result in a oligarchy more oppressive to the proletariat than the bourgeoisie it vilifies.
Name one.
Stop paying taxes and you'll realize just how quickly government shows it owns you.
Get it yet?
Since government is an abstraction of individuals and there is always a revolving door of individuals going from government to corporations, there is a direct link of a select group of people who are running our country. I call them kleptocrats. There is no distinction between government and the elite people who own industry or production.
Yes. Also called centralizing the means of production or consolidating it to the control of one entity.
I have never heard of such power NOT corrupt anyone.
"Socialism" is a friendly label for tyranny. The power structure is a pyramid with corporations at the top and us deplorables at the bottom.
False, in socialism YOU. Own the company.
How is that bad?
Yes. "The people" down own shit, the government does.
Government is an abstract concept to hide the very real people in control. Very similar to derivatives in finance where toxic assets are hidden so people don't see what they are made of. Criminals love obfuscating things this way. Shell corporations are a favorite tactic. These are similar to ETFs of ETFs, in finance. The idea is to layer the real perpetrators behind multiple layers making it difficult to know who is in control.
That's a good way to look at it. I can certainly see the government as a tool for the ones who actually hold power to use to flex their muscles, so to speak. But re: the ETF, you mean it is an indicator of movement/change but hides the details? When they say the s&p is up/down, there is more to it?
The government does not own the means of production. Wtf?
Real communism has never been tried.
define "the government".
I would say the rulers (not the politicians in the news) own the means of production, and run the government.
They 100% do, the federal reserve owns everything. There’s your one example, but it doesn’t end there. They regulate business so much so that it determines how business is done too. They also purchase stock and determine price discovery. All 100% socialist, they fooled you by using different words you don’t understand.
Under communism, the government WILL own the means of production. They say that "the people" will own it, but businesses/assets/real estate etc will all be seized by the state. Where there were once options on where to spend your money, now there is only the state. And the state does a crap job of running businesses, just look at the dmv and post office. Guess what else? If the state doesn't like you, it can cut you off from all those products and services. Or maybe it will destroy that business altogether, so the people are weakened and more easily controlled. Where before you might go down to your neighbor's ranch and get some beef, now the government has taken his acreage and killed all the cows. Do what we say to get your government cheese or starve, peasant! But it's okay, because there's no awful rich people anymore. Now we're equally poor and destitute!
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