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And why did this god give me the reason to require evidence and not just have blind faith or he would give me the "choice" the burn for all eternity. Should we throw out our justice system and just use feelings to judge whether someone is guilty or not?

And why did this god give me the reason to require evidence and not just have blind faith or he would give me the "choice" the burn for all eternity. Should we throw out our justice system and just use feelings to judge whether someone is guilty or not?

(post is archived)

[–] • 5 pts

Humans must provide me with explanations that I find acceptable for my interpretations of the words in a book that I don’t believe about a God that I don’t believe in!

[–] • 1 pt

Say god is a huge flaming homosexual for the sake of argument. Will you still worship it then? Or will you turn on everything you thought of morally just because he created you?

[–] • 2 pts

It’s funny that you think that bullshit hypothetical question is worth asking. It’s certainly not worth responding to.

[–] • 1 pt

It is worth asking. It shows that you will blindly worship any god if you were brainwashed since birth to believe it. We have morals outside that of morals from ancient jews.

[–] • 0 pt

Worf, I love you.

[–] • 3 pts (edited )

Going from your title. That's the rub bud. Jesus looked like every other guy. The preachers of the time the saducees and the pharasees all doubted him. They would ask him hard questions and he would either tell them to get bent or he would give the answer in an example. Went way over their heads. There is only one God that says try me and see that I am good. Why do you burn in hell? Because you aren't perfect like him. You can never be. Can never save yourself. That's why grace was invented. Jesus is the sacrifice you accept it or don't. Hell fire was created only for fallen angels. Not us people.

[–] • 1 pt

Jesus proved he was god by walking on water and all that, no one has been able to replicate that ever since. The rest of us have to go by an old book and Jesus face on burnt toast. And if hell is for the angels, where do the bad people go?

[–] • 0 pt

Outer darkness. People live in a place where there is no God. This place is sad and lonely. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. There was a tv show where a character called bender was ejected into space. He became so sad they he loved crustations and became their God to stave off loneliness

[–] • 1 pt

He became so sad they he loved crustations and became their God to stave off loneliness

Same thing god did with us!

[+] [deleted] • 0 pt
[–] • 2 pts (edited )

because I doubt one god out of thousands of gods

Polytheism does not represent the absolute beginning of belief in ultimate reality. Polytheism arrived later than the primordial belief in an all-powerful sky god. A good deal of religious history is misrepresented to obfuscate this fact, because it throws a wrench in the Darwinian theories which regard the evolution of religion as beginning with polytheism and migrating toward monotheism. The earliest religions, while depicting potentially multiple deities, generally regarded a singular sky god.

The famous polytheistic systems are also mostly misunderstood. The Egyptians, for example, regarded a single god from which issued emanations as representative principles and symbols. The same is true of Hinduism, which posits a single thing as the ultimate reality. Everything else is just lesser principles of the one reality. The average citizen of Greece would have laughed at you if you assumed they treated their pantheon as literal gods.

And why did this god give me the reason to require evidence and not just have blind faith

Because your reason does lead you to God. It has led mankind to God for millennia. The evidence is the inevitable result of a priori logical faculties. Reality is contingent. Contingent existence must have its ultimate explanation in a non-contingent self-caused being according to logical principles: all contingent things do not contain their own reason for existing, therefore something else was their cause.

You can trace this causal chain backward, according to the principle of sufficient reason, all the way to the universe itself. If nothing existed and the universe came to exist, it could not have created itself, else it would have to exist before it existed. If there was something prior to the universe, either it was/is contingent or it was necessary. If it was the former, then the cause of its being was with something else. Eventually, we must arrive at a necessary being.

An infinite regress is not possible. You can have a train with infinite cars, but if we find a moving train, it hardly matters whether we think it has infinite cars or not, there must be an engine car at the front.

This was understood by Aristotle, and later by the scholastics, most notably Aquinas. It was recognized for thousands of years until scientism redefined evidence for you, causing you to distrust your fundamental logical faculties.

You say that you require 'evidence' of the scientific variety. I'd encourage you to make an honest appraisal of the evidence science gives you for the origin of the universe. It's not empirical evidence at all, and in principle it could not be. Yet, if you take their evidence to be satisfactory, then you accept that our universe began as a singularity where no laws of physics applied, and yet somehow it inflated without any laws of physics to promote its doing so. Moreover, this universe tunneled out of some already extant universe in the landscape of the multiverse, which we have no empirical evidence to support the existence of.

The scientific theories you put your money on are self-refuting.

why should I be lit on fire

There are some who believe that what we call hell is torment by fire. I tend to think this fire is metaphorical. Instead, consider what reality is like when you're dreaming. You have virtually zero control over dreaming. At least in the real world certain regularities and your ability to navigate them cause you to experience the sort of predictability that strikes one as 'control'.

The very regularity of the real world that lets you know it's real comes from Logos. Now, imagine that after death your soul is separated from God totally. You become pure, free-floating mind. Quickly you'd realize the difference between your mind and God, for God has the power to create ordered worlds, whereas you do not. Instead, you'd become your own tormentor. What would your mind do, fully liberated from the body and the environment, free to live out its own nightmares with absolutely no control over its own experience, or any possibility to do anything to establish predictability in that experience? In the real world, if we are uncomfortable or afraid, we can take real, freely-willed actions to change our situation.

What options have you in a dream when it becomes terrifying? Well, your only option is to wake up. What happens when there is no waking up, ever? What unending series of hellish torments might you create for yourself, at the mercy of whatever your subconscious mind generates? No order. No regularity. Nothing to hope for. Nobody else to connect to. Just you and the erratic nightmare, in the dark forever, without hope to 'plant your feet' into something logical or ordered ever again.

That self-torment of living with yourself, unable to escape yourself, is what I think of as the burning and gnashing of teeth.

I think that the path to hell in this life is a rejection of Christ and the willful choice to walk away from God. As I see it, hell after bodily death is simply God giving you what you chose. Perfect freedom. Freedom from His power to create ordered experience. Freedom to be perfectly separated from God and from all possibility for love. What will you do with it? Ah, says God, you think that you can do it? As you wish.

It's only slightly more terrifying to imagine that in this place, whatever it might consist in, there are malevolent souls capable of entering your unprotected mind and torturing you according to their power. This is exactly what I believe hell is.

[–] • 1 pt

We truly can't know with certainty the truth outside this physical realm of existence. It very well could have always been, it's too complicated, at least for now, for our physical brains to comprehend. Maybe the Universe collapses back in on itself and the big bang restarts all over again. Or this universe just dies into the void and another one starts on the other side of black holes or something.

I think the whole concept of hell being in your own mind and in a dream like state is still unjust as a fiery hell. For god to throw us into this short existence with no proof of him and with competing religions and secularism. And then to judge us so harshly cause we didn't blindly believe in him or grew up in bad circumstances and became a bad person. It doesn't make sense to me. And if god doesn't make sense to me, then why did he create me to not be able to understand him so simply? If I was god I would be apart of my creations world. Not looking down on them hidden from them and my only source of existence would be from a book.

[–] • 2 pts (edited )

We truly can't know with certainty the truth outside this physical realm of existence.

To be sure, there are some things about this universe that evade our understanding. Still, there are basic principles of logic, accessible to the human mind according to pure unadulterated reasoning, which must make some necessary truths intelligible. If this is not the case, then there is no logic in the universe. If there is no logic in the universe, you have no justification for believing anything at all, including any of the things you've asserted here. You simply could not have justified belief in any fact.

But we do think there is logic in reality, some intelligible order. Nothing can simultaneously be both a square and a circle, nor can something be the color red and green all over simultaneously. Certain logical principles, such as the law of non-contradiction, are true no matter what other facts about the universe obtain.

We can arrive at the belief that there must be a necessary being through such logic.

Maybe the Universe collapses back in on itself and the big bang restarts all over again.

This still implies an untenable situation, for to collapse back into the very state that preceded the big bang is just to collapse back to a state where no laws of nature (physics) exist. Science explains every change and motion in the universe as issuing from the power of natural laws. If there are no laws, then you cannot explain any change. Therefore, to change from the state of a singularity to something else is impossible. If change did ever occur then it required the action of something else. This simply must be the case.

The type of cyclical expansion and contraction you are describing could not occur without an outside source of energy, for it would defy the laws of physics. This would be something like a perpetual motion machine, which cannot happen. Moreover, it couldn't possibly explain how the edges of the known universe are accelerating.

Any appeal to such a cyclical expansion and contraction of the universe must involve contraction back to a singularity and the actions of something other than the universe itself. There's no free lunch.

For god to throw us into this short existence with no proof of him and with competing religions and secularism.

But we have the human mind and pure reasoning to lead us to the inevitable conclusion.

And then to judge us so harshly cause we didn't blindly believe in him or grew up in bad circumstances and became a bad person. It doesn't make sense to me. And if god doesn't make sense to me, then why did he create me to not be able to understand him so simply?

This is going to be far too much to try and get into here, but I'd simply urge you that you are thinking about God in the exoteric sense, i.e. the depiction of the Bible, in which God is a father standing outside the universe and watching you, as though it were through a window or something.

Instead, think of the reality you are in as emanating from God. The one true God is an ineffable ultimate reality which emanates through levels of creation. All of it is God, including this world, including you. This separation you are frustrated by is the illusion. Think of yourself as a local aspect of God, or image of God manifest in an emanation from your source. It's not as if there is God up there, you down here, and judgment being issued. You are a living extension of God's essence. I always hesitate to use the words you are God, because it communicates the wrong idea in one sense, but in an important sense, you are God. Do not get carried away by that notion; the point is only to dissolve the idea you present in the following:

If I was god I would be apart of my creations world.

He is. The key is to stop thinking about God being a character that is hiding from you. You can understand God. Know thyself. The distinction, of course, comes from the fact of your emanation into this created world, which does represent precisely what separates you from The One. This 'fall' into the emanated world and into the local experience God is having as the image of you is what results in evil (or sin). For this reason, we can be more specific and say that to know God is to know The Good in yourself and in the world.

To explain my ideas about hell according to the views I've just given would be too much to get into here. But suffice it to say, the situation is not literally an angry father throwing you into hell for bad behavior. It's something closer to you being a thought in the mind of God which separates itself from the identity of that mind, analogous in a way to a separate personality, a fray on the end of a rope. You choose hell of your own free will and in the separation from the One which results, your soul is liberated into perfect freedom at the moment of your death. This is not punishment. It is honoring your free will, which is God's will. Hell as I have described it is equivalent to ultimate liberation, and it is perfect justice, because you choose it.

I am not counting on radically altering your beliefs with a Poal comment. I appreciate your feedback. Your objections demonstrate that you think, which is a very good thing. I've put up the very same objections you have here at various times in my life. Hopefully what I've said is at least food for thought. Cheers.

[–] • 0 pt (edited )

Great comments in this thread, Chiro.

the situation is not literally an angry father throwing you into hell for bad behavior

You choose hell of your own free will and in the separation from the One which results, your soul is liberated into perfect freedom at the moment of your death. This is not punishment. It is honoring your free will, which is God's will. Hell as I have described it is equivalent to ultimate liberation, and it is perfect justice, because you choose it.

I would say the former presentation is a Biblically inaccurate characterization of the four last things, whereas the latter of the presentations above accords perfectly with Church teaching on the four last things - and this holds at the exoteric level.

I just want to caution against the temptation to dismiss the exoteric as overly trivialized, or inaccurate, or untrue. If anything, it is the masses' understanding or perception of exoteric teachings that are too simplistic, or inaccurate, or untrue, but what the Church teaches is fully true and requires no reference to the esoteric for its real truth to be understood. There is God, and there is us. There is a real distinction between us and God, both exoterically and esoterically - we are the emanations, we are the creatures, and God is the Image, God is the Creator. And it is in accordance with Divine Justice for God to condemn us to hell / cooperate with our choosing of hell, insofar as it is through our sin and our lack of repentance and our denial of grace that we merit such damnation. Hell just is existence without God. We need God's help in order to ascend to God (since we obviously can't do it by our own power). If we deny God, deny His grace, then we have closed off our only means to reaching God. And then we complain when we don't reach Him? It's absurd.

Modernity believes that man is the highest being; that anything that is knowable can be known by man's natural power. This is an assumption, and it happens to be false. If man is not the highest being (and logically he cannot be, given the kinds of considerations to which you've already referred), then there must be some knowledge outside man's natural ability to know. Therefore, if we seek to know such things, it must be through deference to a higher power. It must be by humbly acknowledging our own limitations and asking the Higher Power to inform us. This is what faith is. And it just so happens that, by opening ourselves up to such grace, we actually obtain this higher knowing. Atheists don't seem to appreciate the significance of a person submitting to a higher power, and through / after this submission actually gaining a sincere conviction about higher things. They like to pretend that this is just a matter of fools deluding themselves into believing what they wish were true. But belief doesn't work this way. There are plenty of things that I would like to be true, but my desiring this is insufficient to actually convince me that this is the case. Either there is a rational basis, and even a rational necessity for this belief (in which case we are talking about demonstration, and not faith, which is the case when proving God's existence), or through humility whatever higher power necessarily exists has actually helped me to belief something in spite of the limits of my nature. Faith and conversion via grace.

The skeptic will of course rebut that there are many religious followers who all claim the same convictions. But I perceive this as being in the same vein as those skeptics who claim that the propensity for similar symbolism or mythic details is somehow evidence against the truth of these myths. On the contrary, I perceive this only as evidence in support of their truth. I won't deny that Hindus and Muslims can experience an authentic sense of God, insofar as they too are capable of humbly submitting to this higher power and asking Him for help. God does not leave them entirely without aid. But this aid, this grace, still comes to them through Christ, through His Church, just as all grace enters the world this way. Theirs is a less potent kind, and does not constitute sanctifying grace, but only what Aquinas would call actual grace. Nevertheless, their sense of God can still be genuine, and that they have sincere belief without doubt on this matter is at least suggestive of such higher influences afoot. (Of course, if the appeal to higher power is done without humility, as is the case among idolators and Satanists, then they may still receive their higher knowledge, but it does not come from God, but rather from demons).

I think what you've said is otherwise sufficient. The appeal to science as a requirement for justifying knowledge is just a profane modern superstition - it is incoherent, for it forgets the very non-scientific kinds of knowledge that are necessary as first principles to render science possible in the first place.

[–] • 2 pts

The god of the Old Testament, the god of the Jews, is a jealous god. He doesn't care about justice or mercy, he just wants you to fall down on your knees and worship him, and offer sacrifices of blood to him and not to any other gods. He wants all your worship. That's the only "monotheism" in the Old Testament -- "Worship me and nobody else, or I will punish you." Which is why the Gnostics rejected this god, because he isn't the Highest. He's just some trumped up mountain deity with pretensions.

[–] • 1 pt

Why is Jesus so much different from him? Is god bipolar?

[–] • 2 pts

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are, fundamentally, slave religions. Slaves being told to wage an endless and unwinnable war against nature itself.

They even refer to their believers as sheep and their prophets as shepherds.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

This. Hitler was based for recognizing christianity as semitic, subversive nonsense.

Too bad we're still so beholden to Christians given that there are so many of them. And we wonder why whites are so cucked when they rejected their own people's traditions and mythology in favour of worshipping some dead kike on a stick.

[–] • 1 pt

Exactly!

Furthermore, organic European religions have always been built around nature worship, wisdom seeking. They didn't care if other tribes didn't interpret religion exactly the same as they did, it was about finding advantageous knowledge out of presented information. "Oh so that other tribe that believes in a different pantheon of gods can craft stronger metals.... let's find out how they do that!" Christians would claim "witchcraft!"

Additionally, European Paganism was all about rising above yourself, benefitting those around you and becoming the strongest, wisest, and best. Their entire calendar of sacred festivals followed agriculture and hunting patterns which allowed that life sustaining knowledge to pass down extremely easily

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

Yep. But retard boomers right it all off because they believe the memes about giant orgies or human sacrifice or whatever else.

[–] • 1 pt

Because the fanfiction of a fanfiction of the religion of your ancestors with all the names filed off and the all gods replaced with one single Mary Sue deity who became crazy and schizophrenic as a result is the one true religion, obviously.

Ultimately it doesn't matter much, the damage of Christianity has already been done and the worst traits of Christianity have been sanded down and improved by thousands of years of exposure to European culture, so having a strong "team affiliation" might help with the pending societal collapse, but you might prefer not to have the other members of "team monotheist" in your team when things turn nasty.

[–] • 1 pt

That's the lie bro, there's many gods. This one god thing is pretty new. Jews get credit for being the first to monothiesim, but even they know there's more than one. Luckily, you can feel it when you're interacting with the one that cares about you. Heaven and hell are bullshit. Find something you understand, it's nature for me, and live in accordance to that.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

there's many gods

Heaven and hell are bullshit.

I'm glad you have all the answers, I was starting to get worried that I'd never find them.

[–] • 0 pt

I only have one answer, fren. Boiled down, spiritual fulfillment can only come from having a personal understanding and relationship with a God you understand. People worship god, elohim, vishnu, allah, jesus, and those are all relatively modern. Think of the countless gods that were forgotten, they number in the millions. I say all of those people are/were right. It's only complicated because we make it complicated. One thing I am absolutely sure of however, and that is that spiritual fulfillment should make give life here in this realm meaning, not whatever came before or comes next. It's a trap to think otherwise.

[–] • 1 pt
[–] [deleted] • 1 pt

Because kikes want you to be a good, docile little obedient faggot in this life.

"Don't worry goy, you'll be rewarded for your faggotry in the next life!"

Then they rape and pillage us.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

well to be fair, to God billions of trillions of years is like a second to him...

[–] • 0 pt

Not to us. I think I would get bored of life after a few thousand years. The more you think about eternity the more terrifying it becomes.

[–] [deleted] • 0 pt

i was just joking, i heard laughing can help during the lulls in hell

[–] • 0 pt

Have you read the Bible, or are you asking so that you won't have to read it? People twist the teachings and stories for their own reasons. You need to tead the Bible for yourself. It contains all the answers you'll need.

[–] • 0 pt

I'v only read the first chapter. And I was shocked about how little it actually tells you about life and the universe.

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