I think both yourself and Dennett miss the point.
Either: a) pain is a top level node in this diagram, or b) pain can not be a top-level node in this diagram.
Why a top-level node? I'm not disputing this, but I'm curious why you stipulate that. Dennett's description seemed clear that pain has an origin in what he calls the 'old low path' (OLP) through the limbic system. The example of different effects of analgesia provided either prior to, or after, the painful stimulus showed that you either prevent the afferent information from being processed in the OLP, or the information is processed. In the latter case, the individual says that they indeed feel pain, but that they don't mind it, such as is the case with morphine.
That says to me that there is something essential to the kind of information that can be experienced as pain which originates in the OLP. But I'm not sure that it matters, and here's why:
So we ask what "pain" is.
To me, there is no answer to this question. I take Wittgenstein's side. It's up to the individual's interpretation whether they are feeling pain. In the case where someone who is doped up claims to feel pain, yet also says they don't "mind it", I'd just argue that the claim cannot be denied, but we might think there is a categorical error being made. If they don't 'mind it', then this contradicts something that we'd take to be an essential factor in pain, because pain is a word that describes something which just is something we mind very much.
Pain is an interpretation of a certain contextualized information content. It is something which has the potential to be pain in the right context. Consider the pain someone feels who has been in a coma and opens their eyes for the first in perhaps many weeks. There is a pain with the initial light stimulus. Is this because some real thing (that is, with a real ontic status) has been created? Or is the stimulus so sensitized from lack of use that some threshold for interpretation causes it to be experienced as unpleasant? The exact same information on a regular day would not be painful.
I would then be a PainL eliminativist.
This is the part that I really want to get across. What pain is, is not the important question. The important question is why there is something that it is like to be in pain.
Let's say Dennett is right, and functionalism is the case as a reductive explanation for the cause of pain. Great. I've got no real issue here (despite some of the important problems I've mentioned about his diagram once we get past the point of perception).
This doesn't explain the troubling part about pain. The causal mechanism of pain could be a hundred different things; what we want to know is why there should be something that it is like to be in pain.
I'm with Chalmers here. It is logically possible for the entire functional apparatus to be in place and working, yet where there is nothing that it is 'like' to be in pain.
To see why that's the case in Dennett's functional diagram, consider his only real intentional nodes in the process: belief and desire. There is only a vague way that these two things have experiential content. Like, if I say I believe that Sammy Sosa had 600+ career home runs, it would be strange to say that having that belief is an experience. It is the same with desire in many ways. What we could say is that these aren't associated with qualia, proper, but something below qualia which is psychological. Learning is another example of something that doesn't quite meet the threshold of a quale. Learning can be understood in totally psychological terms, just like belief and desire can.
It's easy to see where Dennett's functional map of pain could account for all of the causes of pain and the associated effects, but it would not have to account for there being something it is like to be in that pain. It could result in someone pulling their hand away from the hot stove without there ever being the qualia associated with being burned.
If it is logically possible for an atomically identical system in some possible world to function identically without there being something it is like to experience the pain, then pain supervenes on the physical properties of the brain, but it is not identical with those properties.
I think both yourself and Dennett miss the point.
Ah, but Chiro, Dennett is smarter than us, according to some arbitrary judgment, and so any argument made against his arguments must be wrong, whether we know how or why, or not.
At least when I cite Aquinas' authority, and someone challenges it, I point to the argument or reply-to-objection where he (inevitably) addresses the argument. It really is true, what G. K. Chesterton said:
"I know of no question that Voltaire asked which St. Thomas Aquinas did not ask before him. Only St. Thomas not only asked, but answered the question."
If they don't 'mind it', then this contradicts something that we'd take to be an essential factor in pain
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We speak of the body, because the cause of pain is in the body: as when we suffer something hurtful to the body. But the movement of pain is always in the soul; since "the body cannot feel pain unless the soul feel it," as Augustine says (Super ).
There's something else I want to say here because I worry that I send the impression that I've tried to refute Dennett, or functionalism. I've not really. There's a way in which I agree with it, and I think this is important. There was a famous counterargument put forward against functionalism by Ned Block called the China Brain Problem. It was basically meant to show how the functionalist paradigm could be applied to people themselves, and by organizing so many people together in a chain of information flow that resulted in some functional outcome, that you'd be forced to say that a billion Chinese people all working in a coordinated pattern must represent a mind.
Although it was meant as a rebuttal, I personally think that it reinforces an important truth about mind, at least the important aspect that we're interested in (which is that egoic sort of focal point of subjective experience). It isn't in the diagram. It transcends the diagram, and it must. Kant so famously argued that fact in the greatest bit of Western philosophy that's ever been written - at least since the middle ages. There can be no doubt that the mental supervenes on the physical. This is obvious. If you rearrange the parts, you fundamentally alter the mind. Block's China Brain would, in my opinion, constitute a mind - although, whether it would be a conscious one is a problem I want to address below.
If the physical properties G are rearranged, the mental properties M are changed. If I fire a bullet into your brain, we'll realize this is true rather quickly. But I also think it is possible (logically) that an atomically identical brain in a possible world could exist which did not have an experience. That's not to say that it is metaphysically possible, just logically possible. So a brain is necessary, but not sufficient to explain the interesting part about the mind.
This is where continental philosophers have recognized something important that was lost on the analytic guys (perhaps until Andy Clark began to talk about extended mind relatively recently), which is that the so-called function is not isolated to what we think of as the internal environment of the thinking system. It includes the environment as well. That is, in the case of pain for example, the pain is not merely a reaction to a stimulus outside of the organism experiencing pain. Rather, the thing which is thought to cause the pain is also part of the pain - and the experiencer of the pain knows that it is pain, in part, because of what it is that's causing it.
If we think that the kinds of judgments involved in the direct experience of pain are transcendental, then the Christian will say that we can explain this extended functionalism (which incorporates everything in the state of affairs, including the environment) because what underlies the essence of everything in the function is God. Put one way, it's all God, you're just a localized point of experience and judgment that can freely choose to structure states of affairs according to your will.
This is why, in the past, I've been interested in the idea of mental properties. We can look at the function described by Dennett and see that every component in this diagram is comprised of not just the physical properties (say, of the C-fibers), but of mental properties. What the C-fibers encounter as they feed causally into the brain is a more complex functional arrangement of the mental properties, because their corresponding physical properties are more complexly arranged. Ultimately, this would represent my metaphysical argument against the possibility of zombies, because in actuality there are no physical properties without the corresponding mental properties. If this isn't the case, then a zombie is perfectly logically feasible.
The China Brain thought experiment highlights this very conveniently. We have no problem seeing that each Chinese person in the billion-person chain instantiates a mind, and so taken together their coordinated physical arrangement results in a unique collective kind of mind. We have only to see that the neurons are analogous to individual persons, which physically situated in the right manner of interdependence to form a brain, come to constitute the collective mind which supervenes on the physical properties of that brain.
Metaphysically, I take the universe to be constituted by mental properties which have the essential end to converge. The physical properties are precisely what represent the 'external' language of the mental properties and which, in limited ways, permit those mental properties to interact with one another. The mental remains fundamentally concealed, but in cases such as brains, there has evolved a unique confluence of physical matter that allows the mental properties to (in effect) transcend the physical language. This happens because a supra-physical means of language obtains: an energetic one. The neurons in the brain are able to communicate via voltage waves, not simply direct synapse-to-synapse digital connections, but through actual waves that propagate across the entire brain.
So, I take an ecological view of mind, and I find that our brain (again, in terms of the interesting part about mind) has actually come with a great redundancy. From the many neurons, we get what amounts to TWO minds - left and right hemispheres. It has been shown that a person can lose an entire hemisphere and not only survive, but live mostly normally, save for perhaps an inability to express themselves in certain left-or-right associated ways. From the many we converge into two, and by way of the interaction of the two across the corpus callosum, we converge into one - the mental properties transcending the physical language contained in their physical orientation to one another, interacting in supra-physical ways that only supervene on the physical, but which transcend them.
Of course, this all depends upon something God-like in the universe. And also par for the course, Dennett would accuse this of being vitalism, which for my part doesn't seem to be as obviously false as he likes to suggest it is. The Christian would say, "Of course vitalism is true." Rather, I think consciousness is multiply realizable, and that follows from what I've said above. This does also mean that consciousness would be possibly realized in machine, although I've argued in another post that I don't think it will occur quite the way science fiction imagines it. The final point I'd like to make is that the picture I've painted here says that consciousness is something which occurs when the mental properties transcend the limitations of the physical language, indicating that for any observer, the possibility of consciousness in some system can only be determined where that system can communicate with us in ways which we accept as signs of consciousness. It is no surprise, therefore, that we accept human consciousness unquestioningly, because of our shared language.
This is ultimately why consciousness must be regarded practically as the ability to report that one is conscious. If we artificially limit the ways that we define consciousness to report itself, then it is possible that we could miss vital parts of mind in larger universal systems. Recall here that the ancients regarded many things in their world as expressions of an animating principle or deity. It strikes us as peculiar today that a Native American may have looked at an incoming storm and said of it: "The sky is angry today." I'd rather not take this as a literal indication that the planet is conscious in the human sense, but instead that humans once intuitively tried to understand the physical language of the universe in the same terms as they understood their own consciousness. When our paradigm shifted toward only recognizing the material properties of the world, and not as a language, we instead allowed the physical to feedback onto us and dilute our own views of what is vital in us, seeing everything as thoughtless mechanism.
Dennett is smarter than us...
As to that point, I have zero doubt he is (at least in my case). Dennett is super smart. That said, I know that your point wasn't to say that he isn't, but to point out that there's no requirement to be as smart as he is to engage in basic reasoning, and there's nothing that prevents a reasonable assent to a smarter person's position, if what you're utilizing to get there is good reasoning.
That's why I like to drill down, if I'm able, to see certain things in common sensical terms. I read a 50-pg academic paper by Dennett, and despite that he understands his thought better than I am able to, I can still shine light on the most conspicuous outcroppings of error: contradictions, or category errors, or straw men, or what have you.
In that last comment, I just pointed out what I thought Chalmers might as well, which is that Dennett is (to a degree) defeating a straw man and failing to answer what is the really troublesome question.
Even if a philosopher of mind wants to argue for functionalism, and further, to say that pain just is the function (which Dennett laid out provisionally in his diagram), you aren't answering why there is something it is like to be a function. You've just moved the goalposts forward by the space of the definition of the word function. Okay, I'm a function. Why am I a function having an experience of a world?
To which Dennett replies: parallel non-linear processes of perceptual organization just result in it, more or less accidentally. PIXIE DUST!
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That's a super interesting quote from Aquinas. And we think we're so futuristic with our phrases like 'quale'.
That said, I know that your point wasn't to say that he isn't, but to point out that there's no requirement to be as smart as he is to engage in basic reasoning, and there's nothing that prevents a reasonable assent to a smarter person's position, if what you're utilizing to get there is good reasoning.
Yes, this was my point. I'm pretty sure I acknowledged the intelligence of men like Dennett months ago when making pretty much the same point as I am now - that reasoning is reasoning regardless of such disparities.
That isn't to say Dennett isn't guilty of major blunders in terms of his failure to understand the basic truths of first principles. I was reminded of EMJ's writings against Dennett et al in Logos Rising just yesterday, when watching an interview with him and an old guest of Taylor Marshall's show, (I was very excited when I saw the title, thinking perhaps EMJ had finally discovered Smith), in which he relates .
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